cr1901 changed the topic of ##yamahasynths to: Channel dedicated to questions and discussion of Yamaha FM Synthesizer internals and corresponding REing. Discussion of synthesis methods similar to the Yamaha line of chips, Sound Blasters + clones, PCM chips like RF5C68, CD/floppy disk theory of operation, and the 68k CPU are also on-topic. Channel logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/~h~yamahasynths
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<myon98>
Oh a website of BEEP, didn't know about that
<myon98>
I'd love to own a x68k one day, I don't know much about it but I just think that the concept of a DOS like OS on a processor with a linear address space is cool
<myon98>
probably related to how straightforward was it to adapt GCC (or as I've read so)
<andlabs>
given the number of gcc books for the X68000 it must have been very easy yes =P
<andlabs>
and gcc is still keeping its 68000 support so it might even be possible to run current gcc on it, maybe
<qu1j0t3>
wellllllllllllllll
<qu1j0t3>
that will definitely come down to address space and physical ram,firstly;-)
<myon98>
In my experience with DJGPP newer GCC unfortunately requires tons of RAM so that might be the limiting factor, like more than 32MB for version 5 or later
<myon98>
But a cross compiler like Retro68 with all the modern features available might be a possibility, while not having to worry about extenders or 16-bit segments like on x86
<andlabs>
oh yeah
<andlabs>
I recently tried building MAME with clang instead of gcc and oh wow the memory usage was significantly reduced
<andlabs>
giant template-heavy files like emumem_aspace.cpp that cause gcc to lock my VM up fly through clang
<andlabs>
as for the beep website that's how I first learned about them by name, since my friend released some gmaes in japan through them
<NiGHTS>
GitHub - autc04/Retro68: a gcc-based cross-compiler for classic 68K and PPC Macintoshes
<myon98>
I only knew BEEP from the cozy store in Akiba, when I went there a few weeks before they were displaying a working TAM
<myon98>
andlabs, yeah. I do have a couple of classic Macs that I would like to program for but the environment is so different and it's very difficult to find documentation compared to WinAPI
<andlabs>
cool
<andlabs>
this looks potentially useful
<andlabs>
and yeah as for documentation you might have to find some ancient PDFs or archives of early-2000s Apple Developer Connection
<qu1j0t3>
myon98: Hm, Inside Macintosh should be very easy to get
<qu1j0t3>
and yeah all those dev cds and ETOs have been imaged, shouldbe online
<qu1j0t3>
it's one of the easiest platforms regarding documentation
<qu1j0t3>
availability of tools should be no problem either; CodeWarrior, MPW, etc
<andlabs>
I wonder how sophisticated the classic APIs are
<qu1j0t3>
similar to Win32
<andlabs>
it would be very funny to have libui run on macOS 9 and macOS 10.8 but not 10.0-10.7
* qu1j0t3
was Mac dev from ~ 1986-
<myon98>
Thank you, I downloaded Macintosh Toolbox Essentials and More Macintosh Toolbox a while ago, I thought it was a little bit terse for a newcomer like me, but it's probably more due to me being unfamiliar with it. I'll look into it more.
<andlabs>
is Inside Macintosh still the doucment of choice for OS 9?
<andlabs>
likewise for Macintosh Toolbox Essentials whose official Apple PDF is from 1992
<qu1j0t3>
why not? it's not like OS 9 has changed :)
* qu1j0t3
started on System 6
<andlabs>
system 6 in 1986? =p
<andlabs>
...huh sys6 was 1988, that's still older than I thought it'd be but okay
<qu1j0t3>
hm, interesting
<qu1j0t3>
must have been system 5
<qu1j0t3>
irecall it was Finder 1.1
<qu1j0t3>
yeah, System 5
<andlabs>
but sure
<qu1j0t3>
there wasn't much visible change
<qu1j0t3>
System 7 (which was extremely late) was a change
<qu1j0t3>
in fact i started on Mac XL -> Mac 512 and the first computer I bought myself was Mac Plus
<andlabs>
it'd be nice if we had disk images that were specific for each model released
<qu1j0t3>
those are probably archived somewhere
<andlabs>
instead of just "random system 6 disks"
<andlabs>
but eh
<qu1j0t3>
the machine-specific ones were a pain in the ass really
<andlabs>
I have an LC II, a SE/30, and a Classic II, all of which need to be recapped (and the SE/30 might have a bit more battery acid left on the board? we tried cleaning that out)
<andlabs>
(amazingly the Classic II battery didn't leak)
<andlabs>
I have a Performa 600 but IDK what the status is on that
<myon98>
But my earliest experience with Macs is KanjiTalk (System) 7 on PPC, no 68ks unfortunately
<andlabs>
and also a Power Mac 7100 and a ~ quoob ~
<andlabs>
(both of which should work)
<qu1j0t3>
actually the first MacOS i used was System 1.1
<qu1j0t3>
but not sure i did any coding there
<qu1j0t3>
i recall that for sure because it was Finder 1.1g
<qu1j0t3>
my Inside Macintosh is the 1983 draft
<andlabs>
cool
<andlabs>
my mac experience started with educational AIOs
<andlabs>
in schools
<andlabs>
I don't know the pre-eMac models unfortunately
<andlabs>
but I definitely used some
<andlabs>
(mid-90s)
<qu1j0t3>
the first coding tools i used were Macintosh Pascal (awesome) and Mac Development System .. i think Consulair thenbought by Apple. first C was Whitesmiths, then Aztec, Lightspeed, etc
<andlabs>
aztec c? ah, amiga development on macintosh =p
<qu1j0t3>
nah they had a Mac version :)
<andlabs>
and cool, the mythical Whitesmiths compilers
<andlabs>
(mythical to me, as a hardcore bell labs fan)
<andlabs>
oh, I've found myself with two nextstations now too, a color and a turbo color
<andlabs>
I have collected way too many computers
<andlabs>
(still want to find the equally mythical Plan 9 Second Edition for NeXT)
<andlabs>
oh someone's doing 9front on nexstation as a new port, neat
<fseidel>
RE: the X68000, I've been able to develop for the thing with GCC 11.2.0, the codegen is generally pretty decent
<fseidel>
AFAICT, the biggest issue is that the cost model was tuned around an '020 (with a few IF_68000_68010 checks in there)
<fseidel>
but it's totally useable, and you'll get much better code than a crusty old C compiler from back in the day (like Sharp's, or a Human68K-native GCC 1.x)
<fseidel>
you also have to deal with libc, I use a newlib port some guy put together about a decade ago, but it's kind of large and has some really janky string handling.
<andlabs>
I still want to know what C compiler MNM Software used that generates 020 instructions in 000 mode, and whether those instructions will actually run in the game I found them in
<andlabs>
unless they wrote it in assembly in which case woah
<fseidel>
I assume you're talking about Slap Fight MD?
<andlabs>
yes
<fseidel>
you mentioned they were also using undocumented ops, right?
<fseidel>
because that screams handwritten
<andlabs>
we'll see whether Star Mobile has the same issue when that comes out
<andlabs>
(A Ressha de Ikou MD seems to be an entirely different programmer)