beneroth changed the topic of #picolisp to: PicoLisp language | The scalpel of software development | Channel Log: | Check for more information
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<u0_a100> hi
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<aw-> hi
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<abu[m]> Hi u0_a100, aw-!
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<beneroth> Hi '( aw- abu[m] )
<beneroth> hi BitPuffin
<BitPuffin> hey beneroth!
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<abu[m]> Now PicoLisp on Termux works again!
<abu[m]> I had filed a Github bug report, because some files ended up in wrong directories
<beneroth> nice!
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<beneroth> last time I tried to install it on termux, I think the package was not available?
<beneroth> but I didn't check further tbh
<abu[m]> The package was availble since early on, but for a year or so it was broken
<abu[m]> I thus used a local installation of Pil
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<beneroth> I see
<abu[m]> The nice thing in Termux is that it is always very much up-to-date. When I release to Debian unstable it appears just a few days later
<abu[m]> And today I filed the bug around 9 and the fix was in the repo half past one
<beneroth> oh very nice
<beneroth> that's in the range of things you cannot get for money but with an engaged community.
<abu[m]> oops, now it is still before one :)
<abu[m]> it was half past twelve then
<beneroth> hehe :)
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<beneroth> abu[m], apparently pil21 requires and apparently it's missing on ubuntu 20.04
<beneroth> just fyi :)
<beneroth> (custom install, not from apt. apt picolisp might bring it?)
<abu[m]> oh
<beneroth> nope - 'apt-get install picolisp' on ubuntu 20.04 installs Picolisp 19.12.28 >.<
<abu[m]> Ubuntu 20 is not pil21, so it does not use libffi
<beneroth> yeah
<abu[m]> ☺
<beneroth> well it's in the name, Ubuntu 20, not 21, right? :D
<abu[m]> But pil does not need a special ffi version. Where does the requirement come from?
<abu[m]> Looks rather like the lib installations are corrupted (symbolic links to the .so files)
<abu[m]> On my Debian there is and
<aw-> hi abu[m] beneroth
<aw-> on my debian i have and pil21 links to that
<abu[m]> Hi aw-
<beneroth> aw-, which debian version? :)
<beneroth> I guess Ubuntu 21.04 would work, but on Ubuntu 20.04 the stuff is missing
<beneroth> succeeded in manually installing - now the picolisp binary complains about missing :)
<aw-> beneroth: debian 11
<beneroth> pil21 version 23.1.6
<beneroth> aw-, yeah you're up to date :)
<aw-> how are you running Ubuntu without libc?
<abu[m]> I find no referrence to a specific libffi-version in pil21
<beneroth> aw-, it specifically asks for
<beneroth> the picolisp binary
<aw-> maybe you didn't compile it correctly
<beneroth> abu[m], maybe it just gets in automatically from LLVM ?
<beneroth> nope I didn't
<beneroth> I compiled it myself, but on another machine
<beneroth> so yeah, that's definitely it :)
<aw-> beneroth: compiled on arm64, copied to x86-64 ?
<beneroth> good point... server was provisioned by customer.. but I asked for amd64
<beneroth> compiled on amd64
<beneroth> nah its both amd64
<aw-> ok good
* Nistur yawns
<beneroth> aw-, good point though :)
<beneroth> I will try with upgrading to ubuntu 21
<Nistur> mornin' all
<beneroth> hey Nistur !
<Nistur> hullo :)
<beneroth> hows livin' ?
<beneroth> you're in Germany now?
<Nistur> yes :P
<Nistur> moved mid-Jan
<beneroth> north or south? I forgot if I knew
<Nistur> although, I feel we're still mid-move and will be for months yet
<beneroth> welcome back in the EU :P
<Nistur> Aachen
<Nistur> or thereabouts
<beneroth> haha, I moved in November and still feel like that
<abu[m]> Still Winterthur? Or out of town?
<Nistur> I had a friend message me recently saying "have you played wround with Penti?"
<beneroth> abu[m], still Winterthur
<beneroth> Nistur, nice
<beneroth> so did he/she?
<Nistur> He had been playing with it then yes, and is now considering building a physical one, although not as silly as mine, which saddens me
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<beneroth> tell him sillyness-level 5/7 is required for penti
<Nistur> when people plan their projects, the deciding factor should always be "how much silly can I squeeze into this?"
<beneroth> or steampunk version like the original old one by abu[m]
<beneroth> Nistur, well my problem is, many customer projects are already beyond silly :-/
<Nistur> :D
<Nistur> I have also (sort of) used lisp for work! :P
<Nistur> although not picolisp :(
<Nistur> We have an in game chat system - currently not in the released game because we have no multiplayer in that. I am not sure if it will ever be, it is just debug UI, and part of a sort of proof of concept thing... but the chat system "works"... so I wondered if we could have a standalone app for it... I mean, it is just doing a few POST calls, and some communication over a websocket...
<Nistur> I didn't write anything myself though, as I am meant to be working on... the game
<Nistur> so I asked ChatGPT to see if it could do it... as a test... I'm working in emacs, so I figured "let's see if it can write me some elisp"...
<Nistur> I gave it some prompts like "write me an elisp function that will do a POST request with a username and password and return a login token in an XML in this format"... and... it did it... It has written me an entire chat client, major mode, communication, everything... It made a LOT of mistakes, but I didn't write any code to fix it, I just copied it the error messages, or described the faulty
<Nistur> behaviour... and it fixed it
<Nistur> which was weird
<beneroth> well it has no understanding of the principles per se (it has no ontology), but its a very advanced text autocompleter
<Nistur> oh yes, I'm aware, that's why I was surprised by how well it did
<beneroth> even weirder I find the picture and video/audio generation nowadays.. we're already at the point where pictures are completely real and believable except for number of fingers...
<abu[m]> At least a lot of fun I suppose
<Nistur> the fingers thing is mostly sorted now actually
<beneroth> photos/video/audio should be soon banned as legal proof. probably a lot of shit will happen before the system catches up.
<beneroth> Nistur, it surely will be sorted in months or very few years.
<Nistur> i've seen very belieavable hands from a bunch of models now
<Nistur> The models are not perfect yet, sure
<Nistur> if you look closely, you can see some imperfections, or things which don't look quite right
<beneroth> yep.
<beneroth> but that can be fixed with more adversary learning
<Nistur> but then, that might just be someone "touching up" a photo and doesn't necessarily scream AI any more
<beneroth> well... porn industry replaced by some computers....
<beneroth> blackmail fake photos...
<beneroth> ChatGPT will probably increase, not reduce, the management bullshitery in companies, no?
<Nistur> So in... 2007 I think it was... I went on a week long hike through Iceland. It was a group thing, where my girlfriend, their family and I joined a few other people and had a guide... not some kind of wilderness thing... anyway, one of the people worked in a university, and they were doing some research into... some kind of tactile displays aimed at disabled people. Can't remember precisely. Anyway, they
<Nistur> were saying that they had porn companies willing to throw HUGE amounts of money at them
<Nistur> porn invests a LOT in technology
<Nistur> well, in the technology that will accept their money
<Nistur> not all universities do :P
<beneroth> abu[m], aw-, upgraded Ubuntu 20.04 to 22.04 (oh it directly went to 22... well ok)
<beneroth> now pil21 runs
<beneroth> well kinda expected
<beneroth> Nistur, yep. they were also very early in VR. and on the internet anyway.
<beneroth> because it also makes a whole lot money
<beneroth> did you already reply to bullshit emails from managers/customers with output from ChatGPT ?
<abu[m]> beneroth: Good! ☺
<Nistur> beneroth: me? No, I haven't had any bullshit emails :P
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<Nistur> I don't really have any customer interaction apart from players' messages on discord, forum, and a few bug reports... and players tend to not bullshit too much
<beneroth> lucky you :)
<beneroth> so when are you adding ChatGPT to NPC talking? :P
<Nistur> :D
<beneroth> Nistur, Tibia had/has a ingame system where you can chat with NPCs, instead of fixed options, though the mechanic just reacts to certain keywords. made it feel a bit like a natural conversation. I expect more into that direction, at least for the ones who can finance a ChatGPT API connection or so....
<beneroth> Tibia from 1997, the first mobile MMO afaik. I never played it, just tried it out once when I meet them at a conference
<Nistur> yeah, I looked into that, because I was wondering if I could get it to write some emacs where it would automagically write me code, and iterate on the errors :P Buuuuuuut they have 4 models, and the one you want, Davinci, is like $0.02 / 1000 tokens (~750 words)
<Nistur> and while... that's not a HUGE amount in the grand scheme of things...
<Nistur> that's an amount that I could very easily burn through a lot of money
<Nistur> Their cheapest one, Ada, is $0.0004 / 1000 tokens
<Nistur> but that couldn't write code
<beneroth> I see
<beneroth> yeah they will milk what they can out of that
<Nistur> I remember in... um... probably 2013, I was at a conference and there was a demo of a web/mobile app which was just a conversation between NPCs. They just talked on their own, and I _believe_ about different things each time. It _may_ have been a murder mystery that you had to solve, I forget. But you could interrupt the conversation and they would answer you, and the topic of the conversation would
<Nistur> change etc
<Nistur> I am pretty sure it was 90% smoke and mirrors
<Nistur> because that's what games mostly are
<Nistur> but I could imagine that something like ChatGPT could do something very similar
<Nistur> in fact, I know for a fact it's already _very_ good at creating fiction... I've got it writing a whoooooooole lot of that
<Nistur> it's not great at consistency
<Nistur> so it keeps changing names and details... but presumably if you were to have a game with this sort of system, you'd be able to have a set of truths that it could reference that would solve that
<beneroth> yeah exactly, I think the same
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