00:28 <discocaml> <jobhdez> Is ocaml better suited for compiler development than Haskell?

00:29 <discocaml> <Kali> both have their pros and cons

00:31 <discocaml> <Kali> you could do well with either

00:49 <discocaml> <coollcat> lmfao your pfp @ilo_kali 😭

00:51 <discocaml> <Kali> although ocaml compilers will likely use less memory simply due to ocaml being strict and allowing impurity

05:13 <discocaml> <jobhdez> Yea ocaml seems to be a more pragmatic language. Thanks

05:16 <discocaml> <jobhdez> Hey you all; are there about the same ocaml jobs available as there is Haskell jobs?

05:52 <discocaml> <wravoc> I looked at the stats for comparison pretty in-depth. It's my supposition that there are more Haskell jobs, but not by more than 1/3. However, one stat that stuck out was that OCaml is top 5 for pay. I would say that is in the Finance Industry mainly though.

05:53 <discocaml> <wravoc> Very hard to land, and I think other qualifications/merits are needed and you basically get assigned OCaml.

05:54 <discocaml> <jobhdez> Oh so it’s very hard to land an ocaml job. That sucks but I’m going to learn it anyways; it seems like great language where it’s enough Haskell like but very pragmatic unlike Haskell

05:55 <discocaml> <coollcat> In my OCaml journey the main weakness I have observed so far is the tooling

05:55 <discocaml> <coollcat> the actual language itself is phenomenal, possibly the most productive yet safe ive ever used

05:55 <discocaml> <coollcat> In my OCaml journey the main weakness I have observed so far is the tooling/standard library/ecosystem

05:56 <discocaml> <wravoc> Yeah, I would definitely say the base OCaml is industrial strength and takes no chances. The tooling is good, I myself have std lib issues, but that is another topic.

05:58 <discocaml> <Kali> imo the ocaml tooling is fantastic (certainly in comparison to haskell, but many other languages too), but the stdlib's general irregularities and overuse of exceptions is my main issue with it

05:58 <discocaml> <wravoc> Dovetailed into that, I just read the 2.2 beta is all about Windiws, what. Maybe 2.3 will see some std lib action.

05:58 <discocaml> <barconstruction> do you have pointers on tooling

05:58 <discocaml> <barconstruction> like what tools do you tend to use most

05:58 <discocaml> <wravoc> Dovetailed into that, I just read the 2.2 beta is all about Windows, what. Maybe 2.3 will see some std lib action.

05:59 <discocaml> <wravoc> Yeah, I personally feel utop and opam are top notch.

06:00 <discocaml> <Kali> well, i mostly use the standard tools like dune and utop and opam, but that's pretty much it

06:00 <discocaml> <wravoc> Like, top 10%

06:00 <discocaml> <wravoc> Dune too, whoops.

06:00 <discocaml> <barconstruction> Personally I somehow broke utop with whatever libraries i import into it in my ocamlinit

06:00 <discocaml> <barconstruction> and whenever i resize the terminal it crashes the program

06:01 <discocaml> <barconstruction> so i need to figure out what's going on there

06:01 <discocaml> <barconstruction> and whenever i resize the terminal it crashes utop

06:01 <discocaml> <barconstruction> it works fine if i delete .ocamlinit

06:01 <discocaml> <wravoc> Try BSD or Alpine Linux, absolutely flawless for me.

06:01 <discocaml> <jobhdez> I thought the community used the core library from Jane street

06:02 <discocaml> <Kali> switching operating systems in order to fix a configuration problem is a bit silly

06:02 <discocaml> <barconstruction> i'm working on WSL.

06:02 <discocaml> <barconstruction> but the same error happened with the VSCode terminal

06:02 <discocaml> <wravoc> Well, there you go!

06:02 <discocaml> <Kali> no, most people actually don't use core

06:03 <discocaml> <Kali> the primary user of core is jane street

06:03 <discocaml> <Kali> you might've gotten that impression from Real World OCaml

06:04 <discocaml> <wravoc> It's not that, if that was taking my point on. Those are just premium experiences, in total, and worth it for any reason.

06:04 <discocaml> <jobhdez> I did. I’m reading it right now

06:04 <discocaml> <coollcat> This sort of misconception is one of the unfortunate parts of OCaml. You never see people wondering which standard library they are supposed to use in Go or C#. Aside from functional programming seeming "weird" it is unfortunately one of the few things holding this language back

06:05 <discocaml> <coollcat> This sort of misconception is one of the unfortunate parts of OCaml. You never see people wondering which standard library they are supposed to use in Go or C# (because there is only one). Aside from functional programming seeming "weird" it is unfortunately one of the few things holding this language back

06:05 <discocaml> <Kali> real world ocaml happens to be coauthored by a jane street employee, so it kind of got steered into core, and with the title of "real world", that confuses a lot of people into thinking core is widely used

06:05 <discocaml> <coollcat> This sort of misconception is one of the unfortunate parts of OCaml. You never see people wondering which standard library they are supposed to use in Go or C# (because there is only one). Aside from functional programming seeming "weird" to folks who have gone through years of schooling doing C and Java, ecosystem is unfortunately one of the few things holding this language back

06:06 <discocaml> <Kali> try to avoid excessive edits, this is bridged to irc and editing here resends the message there

06:06 <discocaml> <functionalprogramming> utop is great but i dont see whats special about opam

06:06 <discocaml> <functionalprogramming> im probably missing something though

06:06 <discocaml> <wravoc> It is unique, and I'm Jane Street all the way. Real World OCaml might be one if the best dev books I ever read.

06:06 <discocaml> <barconstruction> Core is the heavyweight one. Jane Street has a slightly lighter library called base, too

06:07 <discocaml> <functionalprogramming> i prefer not using jst stuff

06:09 <discocaml> <Kali> i think it is pretty neat that ocaml has the capability to swap out standard libraries at all, and it hasn't really resulted in all that much fragmentation (your alternatives are pretty much just core/base, containers, or batteries)

06:10 <discocaml> <wravoc> I had a hard time deciding, core or base, really hard. It's almost a hostile takeover honestly, having worked for Big Tech and Gov, but dang the book was a testament.

06:13 <discocaml> <jobhdez> Why was so good?

06:15 <discocaml> <jobhdez> Why was the book so good?

06:17 <discocaml> <wravoc> Well, I love learning new stuff and I have big projects in mind. The only other competitor in this space is the Cornell Tut. Out out University for way longz and professional Cybersecurity, it just more dine in a practical way, with a more robust library for getting *things done*, miles ahead imo. Top notch writing, pace, examples. If a student though, or juat wanting to improve your skills, or in Data Science, Compilers, Parsers, Lexers, I wou

06:17 <discocaml> <wravoc> Well, I love learning new stuff and I have big projects in mind. The only other competitor in this space is the Cornell Tut. Out out University for way long and professional Cybersecurity, it just more done in a practical way, with a more robust library for getting *things done*, miles ahead imo. Top notch writing, pace, examples. If a student though, or juat wanting to improve your skills, or in Data Science, Compilers, Parsers, Lexers, I woul

06:18 <discocaml> <wravoc> Well, I love learning new stuff and I have big projects in mind. The only other competitor in this space is the Cornell Tut. Out out University for way long and professional Cybersecurity, it just more done in a practical way, with a more robust library for getting *things done*, miles ahead imo. Top notch writing, pace, examples. If a student though, or just wanting to improve your skills, or in Data Science, Compilers, Parsers, Lexers, I woul

06:18 <discocaml> <wravoc> Well, I love learning new stuff and I have big projects in mind. The only other competitor in this space is the Cornell Tut. Out of University for way long and professional Cybersecurity, it just more done in a practical way, with a more robust library for getting *things done*, miles ahead imo. Top notch writing, pace, examples. If a student though, or just wanting to improve your skills, or in Data Science, Compilers, Parsers, Lexers, I would

06:18 <discocaml> <jobhdez> I might just learn both Haskell and ocaml

06:19 <discocaml> <jobhdez> The dream framework seems great

06:19 <discocaml> <wravoc> Oh man, tripling your input time, I advise not. Do one and do it great.

06:20 <discocaml> <wravoc> Dream is awesome, I'm awaiting their success.

06:20 <discocaml> <jobhdez> Oh I see: I don’t know which one to pick. I’m coming from a Common Lisp background

06:22 <discocaml> <wravoc> I don't think anything prepares you for OCaml or Haskell, both superlative. Motivation is King. Pick your project that you are really passionate about, then choose the tool.

06:24 <discocaml> <jobhdez> Thanks. I’m increasingly valuing pragmatism and ocaml seems to fit this more but still a beautiful language

06:53 <discocaml> <barconstruction> is there a good way to like, open up the OWL project to community control? It's not being actively developed or maintained

08:21 <discocaml> <bluddy5> A good sign of OWL not being maintained would be if there were a bunch of unmerged PRs. I see only 6 right now.

13:05 <discocaml> <Ada> the real world ocaml book is really good but containers is still a lot nicer than core

13:06 <discocaml> <Ada> not just because if i ever have problems i can ask the dev in the channel 😉

13:09 <discocaml> <Ada> dream is really great but i’d say it’s also worth knowing either cohttp or httpaf’s bare apis if you’re ever going to write lower level code

13:09 <discocaml> <Ada> e.g. doing streaming and the like

14:27 <companion_cube> 😇

16:23 <discocaml> <gavins3499> Does anyone have a precompiled ocaml-lsp? I'm working on a remote server and don't have root access to download opm and install it that way

16:33 <discocaml> <rgrinberg> you can always clone it and build it yourself

16:36 <discocaml> <gavins3499> I tried that and it was complaining I didn't have the ocaml libraries required to build it

16:37 <discocaml> <gavins3499> I also had to build dune, which I did, then pointed it to the dune executable

16:38 <discocaml> <gavins3499> Would I have to download all of the ocaml dependencies individually?

16:40 <discocaml> <rgrinberg> I think so

16:43 <discocaml> <gavins3499> Hmm, that may be tough without a package manager

17:02 <discocaml> <leviroth> Do you need root in order to install opam?

18:06 <discocaml> <gavins3499> I think I tried to build opam from source, but the built opam points to folders that are only root-accessible when trying to install and manage packages

18:06 <discocaml> <gavins3499> Let me try once more

18:25 <discocaml> <Et7f3 (@me on reply)> What command do you use ? ./configure with --prefix=$PWD --with-vendored-deps and ocamlc in PATH ?

18:44 <discocaml> <gavins3499> I just used ./configure --with-vendored-deps

18:44 <discocaml> <gavins3499> ocamlc is in the path

18:46 <discocaml> <._null._> Can you really not install and use dune in userland ? That would seem much easier

18:47 <discocaml> <gavins3499> I can, that's not the issue. The problem is that ocaml-lsp uses packages that I need to be able to download

18:47 <discocaml> <._null._> You mean only root has internet access ?

18:47 <discocaml> <gavins3499> Its a shared system that has internet access, but I'm just a user with no root access

18:48 <discocaml> <gavins3499> I'll try this configuration

18:48 <discocaml> <._null._> I meant opam*

18:50 <discocaml> <gavins3499> Doesn't look like it looking at the install instructions, everything except building from source seems to require root

18:50 <discocaml> <gavins3499> https://opam.ocaml.org/doc/Install.html

18:51 <discocaml> <._null._> `--download-only` dowloads a binary, you can probably run it anywhere

18:51 <discocaml> <._null._> `--download-only` downloads a binary, you can probably run it anywhere

18:51 <discocaml> <._null._> Using `--download-only` in the script downloads a binary, you can probably run it anywhere

18:54 <discocaml> <gavins3499> I'll give that a try

18:55 <discocaml> <._null._> Just tried, can confirm. You download the script, run it with the flag and you have a binary. Make it executable and you can run it

19:24 <discocaml> <gavins3499> Ah that script worked, thank you

19:24 <discocaml> <gavins3499> I didn't even need the --download-only command line arg

19:24 <discocaml> <gavins3499> 🙏 thank you

23:05 <discocaml> <barconstruction> Sure. Let us use less pejorative language. "Lightly maintained". Owl is a project which has not had a git commit to a dot ml file in 1 year. It is no longer accepting financial donations for support. It no longer has a publicly available link to a slack server for discussion, probably this server has been retired. The most recent pr fixing an obvious bug has been there for four months.

23:11 <discocaml> <barconstruction> Mseri has a fork though that he seems to be maintaining so that's cool