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<companion_cube> https://twitter.com/kmett/status/1397387923993944064 if anyone is still wondering whether to stay on freenode
<manicennui> Was it just that channel or is it one of many?
<companion_cube> one of many
<companion_cube> apparently #wikipedia too, #zig… and that's just the ones I've heard explicitly mentionned
<drakonis> yes
<drakonis> #guix got hit
<drakonis> even secret channels
<copy> same thing happened in #ocaml too
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<companion_cube> well, fuck them
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<xenu> yeah, they took #ubuntu, #fosem, #perl etc etc
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<dy> YIKES.
<dy> What does "took" mean here? Like they seized permissions over the channels and booted the existing ops?
<xenu> yep
<xenu> and if a given channel was an official channel of some project, they also moved it from #foo to ##foo
<xenu> (according to freenode rules unofficial channels should use ##)
<dy> I mean that's *kind of* in the Libera rules too.
<dy> I don't think it was ever enforced except in the case of conflicts on Freenode, and the policy seems to be the same here.
<dy> But still, I didn't expect them to just take top-down control over major channels and remove existing operators.
<dy> That's... yikes.
<dy> Thankfully it seems like all of the major channels I care about moved over here and are approaching 50%ish of their original userbases.
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<dy> xenu: so wait were existing mods removed? It looks like in the #zig case (from what I can see) maybe they werent?
<dy> (or at least weren't as of that time)
<xenu> i don't have the perms to look at #zig's flags, but that's what they did on #perl: 1. they transfered +F to one of the ircops (but the rest of the ops were left alone)
<xenu> 2. they closed the channel and made it redirect to ##perl
<xenu> 3. ##perl is controlled by the staff only
<xenu> that's probably the procedure for official channels
<xenu> a closed channel still has old ops in chanserv ACCESS #channel list
<xenu> but it you do FLAGS #channel list you will get "the channel is closed"
<xenu> s/it/if/
<dy> Yikes.
<xenu> hmm actually it seems that ACCESS #zig list shows that only freenode staff has permissions set on the channel
<xenu> so it's different than on #perl
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<xenu> of course, effectivelly that's the same thing
<companion_cube> I suspect zig's people left and closed their account
<dy> I'm dying.
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<zozozo_> well, with the #ocaml stuff I think that's it for me, time to disconnect from freenode, ^^
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<Armael> same, what a shit show
<zozozo_> yeah, and it really makes a dent in the official "nothing has changed" official stance from a few days ago, :p
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<theblatte> the topic makes it sound like this one isn't the libera network
<theblatte> "Channel available on irc.libera.chat"
<dstolfa> channel ops: be aware that there is an active hostile takeover of channels that mention libera on freenode. gentoo and elixir lost their channels already
<Leonidas> https://twitter.com/quasseldroid/status/1397490987342221312 nice thread of takeover notices
<theblatte> #ocaml got its topic overwritten, dunno if that counts as hijacking...
<Leonidas> I was really thinking this could maybe be ignored
<dstolfa> oh yeah
<dstolfa> ocaml got hijacked too
<dstolfa> lol
<theblatte> I guess that's a good way of speeding up the migration by showing how awful they are at this; worked on me :)
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<theblatte> ocaml.org still points to freenode: https://ocaml.org/community/
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<zozozo> adrien: the channel topic here probably doesn't need to mention libera, ^^
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<dstolfa> i would guess it doesn't need to mention libera anywhere anymore, seeing as ocaml on freenode has been taken over by admins of freenode and should stop existing zozozo :)
<dstolfa> probably an official statement about it on ocaml.org given that nothing on freenode can be trusted anymore would be needed, but yeah
<zozozo> dstolfa: I know, but I rather meant that here (i.e. on libera), the part of the topic about libera could be removed (I assume when setting up the channel, the topic was copied from the freenode channel before the takeover, and people just forgot to remove the part about the move to libera from the topic, ^^)
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<dstolfa> zozozo: ah yes :)
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<dstolfa> i misunderstood what you meant
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<zozozo> ^^
<dmbaturin> I think an official statement on ocaml.org and the forum is a good idea.
<companion_cube> I was just making a PR :p
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<dstolfa> companion_cube: it might be worth noting that anything on #ocaml should not be trusted on freenode (see https://voidlinux.org/news/2021/05/freenode-takeover.html for example)
<companion_cube> dstolfa: yeah… not sure how to phrase it though
<dstolfa> companion_cube: maybe just mention that no official presence is maintained on freenode and that anyone claiming so should not be trusted (e.g. using the exercise extreme caution wording)
<companion_cube> has anyone contacted whitequark btw?
<companion_cube> adrien?
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<Leonidas> whitequark never sleeps :D
<dmbaturin> "OCaml and ocaml.org maintainers do not visit and have no control over the #ocaml channel on freenode. Use extreme caution if anyone says they are."
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<Leonidas> excellent companion_cube, just need to prod adrien to add it here :)
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<companion_cube> you mean in the topic? :)
<companion_cube> adrien: can I be op again? 🙃
<companion_cube> (besides there is only you as founder, and no successor…)
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<Leonidas> yes, exactly
<Leonidas> having a successor is nice indeed
<companion_cube> you can also have several founders
<companion_cube> and ops
<companion_cube> safer this way anyway
<zozozo> indeed
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<companion_cube> :D
<companion_cube> yayyy
<companion_cube> adrien: would you rather use `flags` though? so it's persistent
<adrien> pfft
<adrien> #ocaml on freenode had only one # for over a decade! I knew it was supposed to be ## because of the lack of registration but that kind of behaviour is bad
<companion_cube> hum
<companion_cube> we can register the project I think
<companion_cube> they're just very busy
<companion_cube> OCaml is a legit FOSS project :p
<dstolfa> adrien: it wouldn't have mattered. a lot of registered FLOSS projects got taken over too
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<adrien> and for most of that time, it was freenode that made it impossible to register a group (and therefore get the "right" to have a single #)
<olle> \o
<adrien> and for most of that time, it was freenode that made it impossible to register a group (and therefore get the "right" to have a single #)
<adrien> the whitequark logger is already here btw, it's been there for close to a week I think :P
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<adrien> whitequark did it very quickly after I asked
<companion_cube> yeah cool
<companion_cube> it's in the PR :p
<adrien> and I took forever to change the topic (proof: it's not done yet ;p )
<companion_cube> otoh, I seem to have trouble connecting my bot
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<theblatte> adrien: companion_cube: can you delete the first part of the topic? it made me wonder if I messed up my connexion to libera and ended up on freenode again by mistake when I first read it ;)
companion_cube changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussion about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.12 released: https://ocaml.org/releases/4.12.0.html | Try OCaml in your browser: https://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs coming soon
<theblatte> <3
<theblatte> (also the last part is outdated since we haz public logs now)
companion_cube changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussion about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.12 released: https://ocaml.org/releases/4.12.0.html | Try OCaml in your browser: https://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml/
<adrien> thanks!
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<Leonidas> https://libera.chat/news/one-week-of-libera-chat I think it would be good to register ocaml as a project
<adrien> when things have calmed down
<adrien> the procedure is heavy
<adrien> the thing is that it must involve XL
<adrien> or some "official" person
<adrien> but who is official for OCaml?
<companion_cube> I imagine gasche should be enough
<companion_cube> or anyone with the maintainer flag
<companion_cube> I can ask
<adrien> we could do that
<companion_cube> I'll tell you
<adrien> XL said he was OK when I brought it up quite some time ago
<adrien> but it's paperwork, not fun, and doing the middleman is even less fun
<Leonidas> is this the same on libera chat?
<adrien> I doubt the process is different :D
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<adrien> one thing is sure: they're very busy currently
<adrien> oh and now I remember one not-interesting thing
<adrien> that raised questions: who's in charge? who's in charge if the ones in charge are not available anymore or shouldn't be in charge anymore?
<adrien> as far as I'm concerned, that smells like something that promises a lot of bikeshedding
<orbifx> bikeshedding
<orbifx> ?
<olle> law of triviality <--- google
<orbifx> olle: google? ;)
<olle> hehe
<orbifx> thanks for the link adrien
<zozozo> we could for instance bikeshed about the choice of search engine, :p
<reynir> :D
<Fardale> zozozo: nice one
<zozozo> :D
<Fardale> adrien: according to the PPS of the article, you can send an email and they have a ticket system, so they will get back when they have time.
<adrien> we need to do the paperwork first in any case
<adrien> (busy now)
<companion_cube> is there that much paperwork? wow
<Fardale> Yes, sorry, I missed understood the article, I though it was a quick first email but no.
<Fardale> For what is needed for the registration.
<octachron> I might count as "official" enough for the registration paperwork?
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<theblatte> from the page it doesn't say they need someone particularly high-ranking to register the project
<Armael>
<Armael> (oops)
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<companion_cube> seems like recompiling OCaml stuff is too much for my VPS
<adrien> use zram :P
<zozozo> or get more RAM
<adrien> theblatte: iirc "who" is not very subjective
<adrien> zram is awesome
<zozozo> more RAM is always better
<adrien> I get almost a 1:6 compression ratio
<zozozo> bonus points if your RAM has LEDs on it
<adrien> but that's a VPS
<adrien> you don't get to see the LEDs :D
<companion_cube> I have 979MB ok? :D
<companion_cube> visible
<adrien> well, I'm sure you could build a business on top of VPSes wich LED-enabled RAM
<companion_cube> probably
<companion_cube> downloadmoreleds
<adrien> so, I think it's time to take care of channels accesses
<adrien> who wants to be a victim?
<adrien> besides companion_cube who has already asked to be one
<zozozo> adrien: what kind of victim are you looking for ?
<adrien> OPS
<adrien> ops*
<zozozo> oh.. so much power
<orbifx> I'm still deciding how to make the bike shed :P
<zozozo> adrien: btw, seems like companion_cube lost ops status because of his recent disconnect ?
<adrien> you're supposed to be somewhat there, know enough about irc, know how to use a search engine, pay attention to what you do and weigh the risks vs benefits
<adrien> (i.e. something that the new staff on freenode has not done this morning
<adrien> )
<companion_cube> and be prompt to kick spammers
<companion_cube> oops
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<adrien> yeah, of course
<adrien> something for which I often take time to do because I need to check the right commands :D
<zozozo> XD
<adrien> btw, there are several flags for the channel access lists and it's possible to give different rights
<companion_cube> /kick theguy
<companion_cube> y o l o
<adrien> right, I had forgotten that about you
<adrien> maybe I won't make you op after all
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<zozozo> well, technically, I guess i'm there most of the time, but I haven't really any experience in being an irc op, so I don't know if I'm a good candidate, ^^
<adrien> if you're curious: /msg chanserv help flags
<adrien> well, depending on the scale of the problems, what I do is that I make the whole channel quiet and then I either whitelist people through voice or apply other modes
<adrien> there are a few useful things, they're not that many
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<companion_cube> quiet is +m right?
<adrien> yeah
<dmbaturin> Yes.
<dmbaturin> "Moderated".
<zozozo> adrien: ok, well in that case, if you need more people, I can try, ^^
<Fardale> adrien: if you need more op, I can be one, I am here most of the time and was irc op on an other network
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<adrien> look up the flags ( the /msg command I gave above: /msg chanserv help flag ) and let me know if you don't want some of them (+F is the one that gives all rights, +f follows)
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<Fardale> I think I don't need +F +e +R +S +s, not sure for +f, but I am fine with whatever you give me
<zozozo> same for me
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<adrien> done
<adrien> I gave you +f too
<adrien> you can change flags but only those you have yourself (i.e. you can't change privileges you don't have)
<companion_cube> yaaay
<companion_cube> thank you adrien
<companion_cube> I just checked my priviledges
<adrien> more work for you, less work for me! :P
<zozozo> thanks, :)
<Fardale> thanks
<companion_cube> the POWAAAAA
<companion_cube> jafar.png
<zozozo> we have a tyran now, ^^
<orbifx> hahah "jafar.png"
<zozozo> it's even better than links: everyone can imagine the picture !
<zozozo> it's proof there is no need for fancy features like auto-loading of links in chat
<companion_cube> 😂
<orbifx> ;)
<adrien> well
<adrien> you could make a bot that fetches the image and libcaca-ize it on the channel
<adrien> (colors are stripped but that's a detail for you now)
<Fardale> you can use color, but they are more limited in IRC
<zozozo> that might work, but you need to pick an arbitrary column number, and thos on mobile devies will see garbade because of wrapped lines
<companion_cube> talking about bots, I'm having trouble reconnecting mine
<zozozo> well, minus my typos, :p
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<adrien> favonia: I meant that +C and +c modes remove colors on the channel
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<Fardale> Oh OK
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<EmoSpice> I'm building some Nix derivations for a Reason project. The builtin dune builder calls `dune build -p` per package (so I need to build multiple derivations) and then seemingly parses the `.install` files spit out by dune to figure out what needs to be installed where. I'm struggling to learn more about these install files. Where might I find more
<EmoSpice> information? They are only briefly mentioned on dune's read-the-docs (and that mention doesn't help at all)
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<EmoSpice> Thank you! I must've missed this when I was looking a while back.
<zozozo> no problem, the format is defined by opam, and dune only generates it, so it's reasonable that there is no doc on it in the dune docs, ^^
<EmoSpice> Well, in my case - dune is actually NOT generating it. :P
<zozozo> haha
<EmoSpice> Or rather - it is generating it for the library I've built but not for the executable. I will go ahead and guess that my package is incorrectly defined or something :/
<zozozo> well, for the package the binary is part of (see the dune file that defines it), dune should generate an .install file that contains the binary file to install
<zozozo> *if all goes well*, which.. well can sometime not happen, :p
<EmoSpice> I'm in the latter case, apparently. There's no .install file being generated at all for the executable.
<zozozo> can you share the code/repo where this is happening ?
<companion_cube> is it a public executable?
<EmoSpice> zozozo: Unfortunately, not directly. It's internal and not open source.
<EmoSpice> companion_cube: I'm not sure if you are asking the same question as zozozo or if you're asking if it has a public_name defined.
<zozozo> EmoSpice: companion_cube asked about whether the binary had a "public_name" defined
<companion_cube> I think it needs a public name
<companion_cube> or a package field, can't remember
<EmoSpice> It has both, I believe.
<zozozo> which indeed it should, else dune will not include it in any package and thus no .install file
<companion_cube> `dune build @install` is what generates the .install files
<zozozo> if the package the binary belogns to is ambiguous, I think a recent enough version of dune should complain
<companion_cube> (just in casE)
<EmoSpice> zozozo: I added the package definition because dune complained about the ambiguity. maybe I did so incorrectly. I'll check again.
<EmoSpice> companion_cube: That's helpful to know. thanks.
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<EmoSpice> Manually invoking `dune -p executable @install` fails because the library is not installed. This seems like it'd be problematic all the time when running dune with `-p`? Is the only way to handle this to install `library` and then rerun the isolated build?
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<zozozo> if you want to use "-p", yes, but, you can also do `dune build ./path/to/your/executable.exe` to ask dune to build it
<companion_cube> I forgot if `-p` can take several packages
<zozozo> the '-p <package_name>' option is designed mainly for releases, and it does a lot of things
<EmoSpice> "Want" is a strong term for my desire to use that option - but it is required :P
<EmoSpice> Well, it's required if I don't want to change my build tooling too much
<zozozo> in that case, I think you indeed need to build and install all the deps (including **public** libraries of the same project) before you can build the executable indeed
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<EmoSpice> Without critiquing too much, one thing that's been revelatory for me is to realize just how much of what I would consider to be internal is, in fact, public to the compiler/linker. The assumption that everything is uniquely named is so deeply engrained in the project that every file is exposed to all others.
<EmoSpice> I think I've internalized a lot about OCaml as a language - but the build tooling is still a hurdle looming over me (if it isn't obvious :P)
<zozozo> yeah, the lack of namespacing is a long-standing problem, but it's less of a problem nowadays than before, :p
<companion_cube> over everybody, EmoSpice
<companion_cube> it's miles better than used to be imho
<companion_cube> but still a lot more complicated than in other languages
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<EmoSpice> Oh - I'm not sure I envy anyone with memories of using ocamlbuild or jbuilder.
<zozozo> yeah, dune has significantly improved the building of ocaml projects
<EmoSpice> dune has certainly changed and simplified quite a bit. I'm actually quite excited to see where esy goes too.
<zozozo> haven't tried esy yet
<zozozo> but then again, I have direct access to the opam devs, so that helps with using only opam, :D
<EmoSpice> It's...different. Some of the things it does might strike some people the wrong way (depending on the npm distribution network; fully isolated builds) etc, but I think they're okay if not optimal.
<zozozo> ah.. npm.. well as long as possible, i'm quite happy staying in a only-ocaml world, XD
<adrien> btw, the matrix bridge for libera.chat is almost ready
<zozozo> oh.. nice
<EmoSpice> It isn't using the JS code - just the npm servers to distribute stuff.
<zozozo> now the only thing missing will be the discord bot
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<companion_cube> I just want dune to use/subsume opam
<companion_cube> (e.g. using it as a library for dependency resolution; but doing package managing itself)
<companion_cube> and just have dune-project, no opam files
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<EmoSpice> companion_cube: can you not do that now with `generate_opam_files` in your dune-project?
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<companion_cube> yes, but it still generates opam files :D
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<rak> Hmmm, the freenode channel seems to be forwarding to ##ocaml, which is probably the wrong thing if you want people to come here.
<rak> waleee: Yeah, I was there when #ocaml got hit
<rak> But adrien should probably /mode -f or something
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<rak> A few other project channels also used chanserv's CLEAR <#channel> USERS [reason] to nudge people over to the new network.
<companion_cube> it's probably too late now
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