#commonlisp on 2021-09-19 — irc logs at libera.irclog.whitequark.org

2021-07-12 18:11 Xach changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook>

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00:14 <raeda> cuz: on SBCL you can sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die to save an image. You would have to configure Slime to use that image on the next startup though

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00:17 <rotateq> raeda: but iirc it's not doable from inside of slime in emacs, cause of threading issues

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03:01 <beach> Good morning everyone!

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03:37 <FubbiQuantz> Hi, I'm trying to run a script from the command line using sbcl. When I run the script, it says that sbcl cannot find the package quicklisp. Quicklisp works fine when I'm in the repl. I've tried loading quicklisp directly in my script, but that hasn't worked. How can I modify my program or my shell command to get around this problem?

03:38 <beach> I think we had a long discussion about that only a few days ago.

03:38 <beach> Maybe check the logs.

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03:42 <FubbiQuantz> I'm not finding anything when I use search through the logs. Can you suggest some useful search terms?

03:43 <beach> Let me see...

03:43 <FubbiQuantz> I'm trying to set up a swank server that will keep running even after I log out.

03:44 <beach> I looked for -script and found some results. But this is not my domain of expertise, so I may be wrong.

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03:52 <saturn2> FubbiQuantz: you probably need --load ~/.sbclrc

03:53 <saturn2> or some other file that will load quicklisp

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03:58 <FubbiQuantz> Hello saturn2, that solved the problem. Thank you.

04:00 <FubbiQuantz> The program runs successfully but I can't connect to the swank server.

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09:41 <lukego> Hey I find myself wanting versions of the standard math functions (+, -, exp, sqrt, etc) that are specialized for all values being double-floats. So that I could depend on getting machine code doing efficient non-complex double float without worrying about type declarations on variables. did someone already make a wrapper arithmetic library like that?

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09:54 <pjb> lukego: a VOP library?

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10:08 <lukego> pjb: I'm imagining something simpler e.g. just wrapper functions that wrap everything in COERCE or something.

10:08 <lukego> (and that get inlined to propagate that type information in SBCL)

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10:13 <Nilby> lukego: I'm fond of mass function generating macros for that. I've done something like it for standard string and sequence functions. I guess the hard part is making sure they get the fast path in disassemble.

10:16 <White_Flame> not sure if it's easier to just macro up your local variable declarations, instead of the functions themselves

10:16 <Nilby> If I recall there are a bunch of 3d graphics-math-ish packages that do that.

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10:24 <lukego> Maybe like this? https://gist.github.com/lukego/830a787776b93d2cf9ff8fc6304598ce

10:24 <lukego> needs inline declaration

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10:26 <lukego> maybe better with the wrappers as macros, easier to handle &rest in that case

10:27 <lukego> okay and maybe some tricks could be played with macrolet e.g. to make (. (+ (* ...) ...)) automagically coerced or something. hm.

10:28 <Nilby> Yes. I love that kind of thing. And then you can even (loop for op in '(+ - * /) (def.wrapper ,s ...))

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10:35 <lukego> Using MACROLET to shadow + gives a package lock error on COMMON-LISP. That seems a bit harsh?

10:37 <tfb> lukego: it's what the spec says (well, not package lock, but you're not allowed to do that

10:37 <hayley> Would (INCF place) expanding to (SETF place (+ place 1)) [as a not-too-close approximation] still work?

10:39 <tfb> hayley: right. or perhaps the compiler rewrites (1+ x) to (+ x 1) and now 1+ is broken

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10:40 <lukego> ah okay probably for good reasons then

10:40 <tfb> (not related to previous) if *x* is special and has a toplevel binding, what should (progn (let ((*x* 3) (makunbound '*x*))) *x*) do?

10:41 <tfb> (at toplevel, so no other bindings of *x*)

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10:48 <Nilby> oooh, I nice warning I've never seen

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11:32 <Krystof> tfb: I believe it should return the toplevel binding of *x*. I'm not 100% convinced the language about that is airtight in the spec, though

11:32 <Colleen> Krystof: mfiano said at 2021.09.14 10:02:46: lp 1943559

11:39 <tfb> Krystof: I think that too. The next question is what should (let ((*x* 3)) (makunbound '*x*) *x*) do?

11:39 <tfb> I think the spec is just unclear here!

11:40 <tfb> because you seem to end up with a situation where a special variable is locally unbound but globally bound...

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11:55 <edgar-rft> in SBCL it's funny:

11:55 <edgar-rft> with no (defvar *x* ...) before MAKUNBOUND seems to have no effect at all, but

11:55 <edgar-rft> (let ((*x* 1)) (makunbound '*x*) *x*) => 1

11:55 <edgar-rft> (defvar *x* 123) (let ((*x* 1)) (makunbound '*x*) *x*) => error: variable *x* is unbound

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12:01 <_death> http://cl-su-ai.lisp.se/msg03748.html

12:05 <beach> edgar-rft: With no DEFVAR, *X* would be lexical, so MAKUNBOUND has no effect on that lexical variable.

12:05 <edgar-rft> _death: where is that "description from? the CLHS says nothing about "dynamic (special) variable", it says "symbol" instead

12:07 <edgar-rft> beach: I assumed the same, but the CLHS doesn't say that MAKUNBOUND doesn't work on lexical symbols

12:07 <beach> Oh?

12:07 <beach> clhs makunbound

12:07 <specbot> http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_makunb.htm

12:07 <_death> edgar-rft: this was written while the standard was written.. there is a follow-up by Moon explaining what is meant to happen

12:07 <Nilby> _death: 1987. always impressed with your deep research

12:08 <beach> edgar-rft: I see what you mean. That information is presumably taken for granted, but it would be good to include it in WSCL.

12:08 <Nilby> Moon's answer makes sense, but it seems like noone every really "deep-six"ed it.

12:08 <_death> Nilby: it's easy to just search cl-su-ai ;)

12:09 <beach> edgar-rft: It is not possible to have unbound lexical variables in Common Lisp.

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12:09 <_death> Nilby: well, there is also a follow-up to Moon, where an attempt at disambiguation is mention in the context of Scheme

12:09 <_death> *mentioned

12:09 <beach> Also, it should not say "value cell".

12:10 * edgar-rft also says thanks to _death for his archaelogical skills :-)

12:14 <Nilby> still my biggest gripe with makunbound is the missing ‘e’

12:16 <tfb> I assume it was abvious that MAKUNBOUND could not work on a lexical variable (it's a function for one thing!)

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12:21 <Nilby> I'm pretty sure makunbound is from before lexical scoping. "We just can't win."

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12:42 <lukego> Coded up that idea of generating typed math wrappers: https://gist.github.com/lukego/726f23d20119c37d1bbd705a29f50f76. So e.g. defining |.| prefixed double-float ops and writing (.exp (.* -0.5d0 (.expt (./ (.- x μ) σ) 2))) knowing everything will be coerced safely to double and compiled to floating point machine code.

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12:44 <hayley> In OCaml they write *. (from memory).

12:45 <lukego> Maybe it should take a format string instead of a prefix

12:46 <hayley> You might also want to consider inlining, in order to avoid boxing double-floats with current compilers.

12:47 <_death> a similar idea is declared numerics (which don't coerce, just declare).. https://github.com/binghe/GBBopen/blob/master/source/tools/declared-numerics.lisp

13:01 <lukego> hayley: current version is defining all the operators as macros so that should take care of the inlining angle, right?

13:01 <hayley> Yes, I misread. My bad.

13:03 <lukego> I'd started off with functions but yeah decided to make it dumber

13:03 <lukego> (the whole idea here is to be a bit dumb i.e. for times when you want to be sure of how the compiled code will be but don't want to think too hard about your type declarations)

13:06 <lukego> and maybe declarations are putting you on the path of getting runtime errors - or invalid results if safety is low - when type conversions might be more appropriate, especially on these fancy-pants wide-backended branch-predicting types of computers we're using these days

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13:34 <lukego> _death: interesting!

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14:27 <pjb> lukego: note that using SHADOW to shadow should work better.

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18:30 <pve> Is one supposed to use (the double-float ...) or (coerce ... 'double-float) to tell the compiler what to expect?

18:30 <pve> or will both work?

18:34 <mfiano> The former is a promise to the compiler, which is allowed to do nothing or anything.

18:35 <mfiano> The latter will allocate a new object

18:35 <lotuseater> hm i thought with THE it's more like a promise "this shall be that type" and with coerce an instruction "transforms this to the new type"

18:35 <lotuseater> thx mfiano :)

18:36 <pve> Yep, that's been my impression as well, just checking. Thank you.

18:37 <aeth> (the double-float x) is very, very, very close to (prog1 x (check-type x double-float))

18:37 <aeth> Some compilers might implement it that way.

18:37 <lotuseater> interesting

18:38 <aeth> SBCL doesn't. For DECLARE, DECLAIM, THE, etc., SBCL will use a faster CHECK-TYPE that is not recoverable.

18:38 <aeth> And that doesn't run when (safety 0)

18:38 <lotuseater> haha yes i had this experience at some point ^^

18:39 <aeth> What I mean is, (prog1 x (check-type x double-float)) in SBCL will let you supply a new x that satisfies double-float, while (the double-float x) will fail the program if it's not a double-float

18:39 <aeth> Marginally faster, I guess

18:40 <aeth> However, other implementations might just have no distinction.

18:40 <aeth> The lack of STORE-VALUE, at least in SBCL.

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20:24 <pjb> pve: (the double-float x) (or (declare (type double-float x))) is actually more like: { int x; *(double*)&x=3.14d0; }

20:25 <pjb> pve: I would definitely not do that!

20:25 <pjb> pve: (coerce x 'double-float) is more like {int x=314; (double)x; } this can be acceptable.

20:26 <pjb> aeth: (the double-float x) has nothing in common with (check-type x double-float).

20:30 <lotuseater> pjb: one of those dirty c tricks :)

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