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<discocaml>
<lyhokia> Hello, does any one knows if there's something similar to ppx_nanocaml but maintained?
<discocaml>
<sim642> Maybe I'm missing something but what's ppx_nanocaml really adding? It already uses polymorphic variants, so you might as well manage those directly and write transformations without ppx stuff
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> How do you delete a branch from ADT?
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> okay this seems interesting and it seems to be solving this problem for me
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> Thanks
<discocaml>
<sim642> With just polymorphic variants you can't delete branches but you can define types for common parts and then define different ASTs to combine them differently, i.e. not include all the common things
<discocaml>
<sim642> With just polymorphic variants you can't delete branches but you can define types for common parts and then define different ASTs to combine them differently, i.e. not include all the things
<discocaml>
<sim642> With the Catala approach, deletion is handled by those phantom object type fields
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<discocaml>
<lyhokia> Is there a convenient way to copy the phantom object type and replace some field from YES to NO? I feel like this is replacing one problem to another one
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<discocaml>
<lyhokia> What does this 'as' mean here? Is there document explaining it?
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<discocaml>
<_terence_> If you were to translate to Coq something built using this technique, would it be feasible?
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<discocaml>
<lyhokia> I guess as long as you have GADT and row types you can emulate this right?
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> Is Coq dependenty-typed? If so it will be even easier because you can replace the object type just with a concrete value
<companion_cube>
it is
<discocaml>
<Kali> yes, it is
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<technomancy>
I'm teaching some teenagers ocaml and as much as I love Emacs, I don't feel like that's the right thing for them right now. are there any good newbie-friendly editors that are good for ocaml other than vs code?
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> Not much... Vim?
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> Does ocaml even have a recommended editor?
<discocaml>
<Kali> yes, emacs is generally recommended due to the fact is has the best support
<discocaml>
<Kali> however, vim/nvim also works fine for it
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> But neither emacs or vim are the choice for newbies... I would say just VSCode
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<technomancy>
it looks like nano and gedit both support syntax highlighting for ocaml
<technomancy>
that's handy since they already have some experience with both
<discocaml>
<Kali> oh, do you just want syntax highlighting? yeah, those work fine
<technomancy>
I mean... I don't know, honestly. I just want something that's not going to take a lot of time to set up and learn.
<technomancy>
but for newbies maybe it's not a good idea to use a system that can't show them types in the editor?
<technomancy>
how important do you think that is?
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> At least LSP
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> I feel Highlight + LSP + Auto complete is a must for modern work flow
<technomancy>
for teaching the dynamic languages I've done, syntax highlighting has been enough, but lack of indentation support has honestly been a bigger problem than I expected
<technomancy>
but I've never taught a static language before
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> Sounds painful to write code on a colorful notepad
<technomancy>
the assignment is a 200-line program, for context =)
<technomancy>
which I wrote for myself in Emacs with no lsp or merlin or whatever
<technomancy>
just colors+indentation
<discocaml>
<Kali> honestly vim isn't too bad to teach if they have a cheatsheet easily accessible
<technomancy>
maybe but the problem is I can't help if they get stuck, so if I'm going to recommend an "advanced" editor it will probably be emacs =)
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<discocaml>
<lyhokia> What's preventing you from suggesting them to use VSCode?
<technomancy>
neither myself nor the students like microsoft, I guess
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> ... How is that a proper reason
<technomancy>
I mean, they can use it if they want, and I'll mention it; I'm just wondering what the other options are.
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> You guys don't use windows and office?
<technomancy>
no
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> If you are linux users, learning vim is a must IMO
<technomancy>
I've used linux for over 20 years and never used vim
<technomancy>
but I will offer it as an option
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> Imagine you ssh to a server there's only vi on it, how can you survive without knowing using vim?
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> If you're just a desktop user you're probably fine
<technomancy>
well, lots of bad things can happen in my imagination
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> I don't think there's any other practical options...
<technomancy>
ok, thanks
<discocaml>
<Kali> honestly just give them the options of what you've already mentioned and make note that you know emacs best
<technomancy>
yeah, sounds good =)
<technomancy>
https://p.hagelb.org/mire.ml.html ok, next question. this code converts to and from seqs a fair bit, to go between lists and hash tables. but I never actually want a seq for its own sake. is there a better way to do this without seqs, or is this just normal?
<technomancy>
do you think it's a good idea to use Base and RWO? the context is that this is a course introducing a number of different languages, taking one single program and reimplementing it over and over in several different paradigms. they'll probably spend about 3 weeks on OCaml.
<discocaml>
<Kali> here's all the conversion functions in ocaml's stdlib
<discocaml>
<Kali> solid line = two-way, arrow = one-way
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> I'll probably not use an alternative std if you're just learning the language's syntax and semantic rather than writing real project. More stuff is always more complicated. Missing pieces in std aren't so hard to implement on your own either.
<technomancy>
might be better to stick with the tutorials and documentation on ocaml.org then, huh?
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> I've taken class where we write a compiler in ocaml, and we didn't end up using other std
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> yeah exactly, there isn't a lot of docs on alternative std
<discocaml>
<Kali> honestly, the language manual isn't that bad of a read either
<discocaml>
<Kali> it's not horribly dry except in very advanced topics
<technomancy>
oh wow, even the official tutorial steps you thru installing lsp
<technomancy>
I guess that's becoming more common nowadays
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> I like this for an intro for ocaml: https://cs3110.github.io/textbook/cover.html, they have some really advanced topic here as well like how to implement HM type inference
<discocaml>
<Kali> oh wow, the ocaml site looks a little different from when i last visited
<technomancy>
is merlin kind of a proto-lsp thing?
<discocaml>
<Kali> merlin is an lsp
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> I guess LSP protocal is proposed later than merlin
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<technomancy>
yeah it seems like a lot of languages have similar things
<technomancy>
they realized editor independent tooling is a really good idea
<technomancy>
some of them even realized that editor *and* language-independent tooling is a good idea
<technomancy>
but none of them had the marketing budget that LSP had
<discocaml>
<Kali> there is also ocaml-lsp
<discocaml>
<Kali> > Previously, this lsp server was a part of merlin, until it was realized that the lsp protocol covers a wider scope than merlin.
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> There's also nREPL for evaluation across socket, proposed by clojure.
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> But never seen wide adaption beside lisp family
<technomancy>
I've written an nrepl server for lua
<discocaml>
<Kali> oh nice
<discocaml>
<Kali> i like lua, it is a very flexible language
<technomancy>
but most lua programmers don't understand what they are missing out on from not using the repl
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> A lot
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> Shortening the feedback loops matters a lot
<technomancy>
in an alternate timeline nrepl could have been the basis for the stuff we use LSP nowadays for
<technomancy>
and all that UTF-16 nonsense would not be an issue
<technomancy>
ah well
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> Probably not, nREPL is reponsible solely for evaluation
<technomancy>
much moreso than LSP in fact, since it's full duplex and not limited to request/response
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> that's interesting
<technomancy>
but it supports documentation lookup and jump-to-definition; it's not hard to extend it to other things like types or finding references
<technomancy>
the problem is that the current maintainer of nrepl.org isn't really interested in non-clojure applications of the protocol (and that lsp already dominates so strongly)
<discocaml>
<Kali> lyhokia, note that editing a message resends the new message due to irc limitations
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> Oh, sorry about that
<technomancy>
I should have figured you folks would be sympathetic to my nrepl ideas since the original creator of nrepl uses ocaml =)
<discocaml>
<Kali> it's fine, just for future reference
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> does ocaml has a nrepl based on utop?
<technomancy>
I haven't seen it if so but maybe cemerick has something up his sleeve
<technomancy>
I also think it's pretty funny that the youtube trend of "make ridiculous faces in the thumbnail" has even spread to ocaml now https://p.hagelb.org/ocaml-yt.png
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<discocaml>
<geoff> moreso that those guys are funny face makers that have recently gotten into ocaml
<discocaml>
<deepspacejohn> “Weirdest first programming language” 🤨
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<discocaml>
<lyhokia> making funny faces get you more clicks, that's the same case for other video platforms like youtube
<technomancy>
I mostly assume that anyone who knows ocaml is dignified enough to not make funny faces even if it gets more clicks
<technomancy>
that may not be true but I learned from childrens' films that it's important to follow your heart
<discocaml>
<regularspatula> lol what does that even mean
<technomancy>
means I don't fall for clickbait =)
<discocaml>
<Kali> (regularspatula was responding to deepspacejohn)
<discocaml>
<Kali> replies do not bridge
<technomancy>
oh haha
<discocaml>
<regularspatula> Oh sorry about that I forget about the relies
<discocaml>
<regularspatula> Replies*
<discocaml>
<Kali> i sometimes we had a nicer non-discord bridge, like matrix or xmpp/jabber
<technomancy>
bahaha this olical video has that same funny-face-making guy in the recommendations
<technomancy>
apparently he hates neovim
<discocaml>
<Kali> which one?
<discocaml>
<Kali> the primagen?
<discocaml>
<regularspatula> It’s cool to see YouTube people using ocaml
<technomancy>
Kali: yeah
<discocaml>
<Kali> do not be mislead by primagen's clickbait: none of those are his opinions, they are him reacting to someone expressing that opinion
<discocaml>
<Kali> he uses neovim in all his videos :)
<discocaml>
<Kali> or some vim flavor
<discocaml>
<Kali> not sure which but i'd assume neovim
<technomancy>
oh right, that other weird youtube trend of assuming people are interested in the way you react to what someone else said
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<technomancy>
recommendation algorithms are a hell of adrug
<discocaml>
<Kali> almost all of primagen's videos are reaction videos
<discocaml>
<Kali> there are a few that aren't
<discocaml>
<Kali> but every last one is clickbait for the most part, haha
<technomancy>
I should probably just get one of those extensions that hides the recommendations altogether
<technomancy>
apparently 35% of the lines of my program are `let`s; if you add the lines which aren't literally `let` but still bind as part of `match`/`try`/etc it's 50%
<technomancy>
is that normal?
<discocaml>
<lyhokia> I think that's pretty normal
<discocaml>
<Kali> seems fine
<technomancy>
just takes some getting used to
<technomancy>
but not as much getting used to as practically stopping using parens altogether
<discocaml>
<Kali> it just means you are naming a lot of intermediate values, which is probably helpful for newer programmers
<technomancy>
haha yeah don't want to get into point-free stuff yet especially