companion_cube changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussion about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.14.0 released: https://ocaml.org/releases/4.14.0.html | Try OCaml in your browser: https://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml/
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<olle> "Can Programming Be Liberated from the von
<olle> Neumann Style?"
<olle> 1978
<olle> Fun :)
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<ski> it's a nice paper :)
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<olle> ski: The 1978 one? I read the first paragraphs, will try to find time
<olle> Found it on a video talk on Forth etc
<olle> Lots of weird things going on in the forth community...
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<ski> well, the Backus Turing award lecture paper, yea
<olle> Yep
<ski> (also Hughes' Why FP paper)
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<ski> ("Why Functional Programming Matters" by John Hughes in 1984 at <https://www.cse.chalmers.se/~rjmh/Papers/whyfp.html>. it stresses non-strict evaluation a bit moer, but is quite nice)
<olle> "Discussions about programming languages often
<olle> resemble medieval debates about the number of angels
<olle> that can dance on the head of a pin instead of exciting
<olle> contests between fundamentally differing concepts."
<olle> Funny guy
<ski> also reminds me of another paper
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<ski> "Sacrificing the calf of flexibility on the altar of reliability" by Peter J. Denning in 1976 at <https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.5555/800253.807704>
<ski> ‟The term "flexibility" is usually used to denote the existence of a range of choices available to a programmer or implementor -- the more choices, the greater the flexibility. Flexibility is sometimes referred to as "generality". Because it is frequently presented in the desirable terms, "delaying binding of virtual objects to their realizations," ..”
<ski> ‟.. increased flexibility has generally been considered a fatted calf of great succulence, sought voraciously and in the hope that the increased complexity that invariably attends it can be kept under control. In recent years, the wisdom of this quest has been called into question, for flexibility without discipline appears contrary to the plans of the god of reliability. ..”
<ski> ‟.. (An automobile with independent steering mechanisms for both front wheels is more flexible but less disciplined than an ordinary one. It is mainly of metaphysical interest, offensive to the god of safe highways.)”
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<olle> flexible != expressive?
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<ski> olle : well, it mentions introducing high(er)-level programming languages, over assembly programming; time-sharing vs. more explicit lowlevel resource control; virtual memory; relational vs. network databases, as well as talks a bit about more "wild" dynamic changes to a system, and talking more generally about the recurring history pattern
<ski> (the expressiveness ("cavalier power") vs. "reasonability" ("predictive power") (including refactoring) trade-off is also relevant, yea)
<olle> hm
<olle> well high-level in 70s was already going strong?
<ski> you had FORTRAN,LISP,COBOL,Algol, as well as more recent ones like ISWIM,Simula,APL,Forth,C,Prolog,Smalltalk,ML,CLU,..
* ski . o O ( "10 Most(ly dead) Influential Programming Languages" by Hillel Wayne in 2020-03-25 at <https://hillelwayne.com/post/influential-dead-languages/> )
<ski> (all certainly higher-level than assembly)
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<olle> Right
<olle> Gotta sleep tho
<olle> Get that sweet REM
<ski> gn
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<olle> \o
<ski> 10 REM sleep well
<olle> :D
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