15:17 <ppetrov^> so, is CRUX 3.8 going to drop /usr/etc in favour of having just /etc

15:20 <ukky> if it would be up to me, I would keep both.

15:31 <SiFuh> If it would be up to me, /etc would be the only place to find the system configurations

15:35 <ppetrov^> heh

15:35 <ppetrov^> so, it's up to whom, then?

15:36 <ppetrov^> i actually like to have both, so "secondary" stuff goes to /usr/etc, but then the Handbook should clearly state what goes one place or another. Or give some suggestions/examples and guidelines

15:37 <SiFuh> CRUX dev team

15:37 <ukky> Well-known system configuration files must be in /etc. Like /etc/resolv.conf. But package-specific files could/may/should be in /usr/etc/

15:37 <SiFuh> OpenBSD moved everything into /etc

15:37 <ppetrov^> ukky, yes that's how I see it, as well

15:38 <ppetrov^> SiFuh, but OpenBSD also has /usr/local, while CRUX does not use that at all, right?

15:38 <SiFuh> I understand ukky's point of view and I agree with it in a different prespective but all system wide configs should be in one place

15:38 <SiFuh> OpenBSD got rid of /usr/etc and /usr/local/etc because it was just way to messy

15:38 <ppetrov^> is /usr/etc found in other distros, too?

15:38 <SiFuh> FreeBSD

15:39 <ppetrov^> and Linux?

15:39 <ukky> ppetrov^: Check section 5.6.2 of Handbook 3.7

15:39 <ppetrov^> Void or sth?

15:39 <ppetrov^> ukky, thanks i will

15:39 <SiFuh> OpenBSD ports are installed to /usr/local but the etc is still /etc

15:40 <ppetrov^> yes, actually it's already written there, so what I was asking was redundant

15:41 <ukky> SiFuh is right, system-wide files must be in /etc

15:42 <SiFuh> The question I'd like to ask is why is their a system wide config for a program that is not core?

15:42 <SiFuh> their/there*

15:43 <SiFuh> For example. Kismet has a local user config and a system wide config. Why bother with the system wide config?

15:44 <ppetrov^> SiFuh, isn't it used as a config template/example or sth?

15:44 <farkuhar> SiFuh: when did OpenBSD get rid of /usr/etc and /usr/local/etc? I haven't used it as a daily driver since 2019, so they must have made the change within the past 5 years.

15:44 <SiFuh> So if you look deeper into the OpenBSD ports, most of the system wide configs are stripped as they are not needed

15:45 <SiFuh> farkuhar: Before 2019

15:46 <farkuhar> Huh, maybe I misremembered how the config files were laid out back then.

15:46 <SiFuh> ppetrov^: OpenBSD has examples under /etc/examples but they are rarely used for ports

15:46 <SiFuh> farkuhar: Maybe, because it was one of the things I hated about FreeBSD

15:46 <ppetrov^> well, i wouldn't know. Never used any BSD

15:48 <SiFuh> ppetrov^: The suggestion of ukky [Not exactly] is cool because OpenBSD follows it nicely. Core OS goes to /. OpenBSD programs go to /usr. Ports (contrib you could say?) goes into /usr/local/

15:49 <ppetrov^> yep, i remember you telling me about their "contrib" ports going to /usr/local

15:49 <SiFuh> The /etc thing though is a different topic altogether though even though it is similar

15:49 <ppetrov^> so for you, an ideal CRUX would put contrib there, too? :P

15:49 <SiFuh> Yes

15:50 <ppetrov^> and repackaged bins to /opt

15:50 <SiFuh> I want core in / and opt in /usr and contrib in /usr/local

15:50 <ppetrov^> how about stuff that is not part of a package?

15:50 <ppetrov^> has this been discussed?

15:50 <SiFuh> All system wide stuff to /etc but must be real system wide stuff not garbage programs.

15:51 <farkuhar> These are the ports that put stuff into /usr/etc: i3 unixodbc at-spi2-core binutils pangox-compat lftp libreoffice mutt iptables a2ps nano libblockdev gtk chktex yapo mailx davfs2 ostree dar xorg lm_sensors mono gnome-keyring tslib enscript mc gimp lynx rust-bin slang spectrwm irssi openbox imagemagick

15:51 <SiFuh> Yes and no, but not really. Dev's seem to avoid it because it means more work for the port maintainers and a possible rewrite of ports

15:52 <ppetrov^> farkuhar, shouldn't yapo use /etc?

15:52 <ppetrov^> i mean, it deals with ports

15:52 <ppetrov^> not that it bothers me, really...

15:53 <SiFuh> farkuhar: With the exception of gtk, xorg, lm_sensors (I don't know what is a yapo) the rest should NOT have a system wide configuration.

15:53 <ppetrov^> SiFuh, yapo is a CLI for dealing with ports

15:53 <ppetrov^> pretty nice, IMHO

15:53 <SiFuh> Oh I think I might remember that

15:53 <farkuhar> ppetrov^: don't ask me, yapo was jue's creation, he gets to decide where its config lives.

15:55 <SiFuh> If yapo is to do with ports then it can have a system wide config

15:57 <ppetrov^> farkuhar, true that

17:03 <darfo> when disks used to be ungodly expensive/small /etc was used to get the system booted enough to NFS mount /usr

17:05 <darfo> then /usr/etc contained configs for shared software in /usr/bin and /usr/sbin

17:05 <darfo> saved a lot of local disk space

17:06 <remiliascarlet> I think putting configs in /usr/etc is a bad idea.

17:06 <remiliascarlet> In FreeBSD and NetBSD they put configs of 3rd party programs under /usr/local/etc, which feels very retarded. Only OpenBSD (among the BSD's) puts them all under /etc.

17:10 <darfo> in the NFS scheme /usr/local/etc was to configure software differnently for one workstation

17:10 <darfo> unpriveleged users could write /usr/local/? and install third-party software

17:11 <darfo> if things broke first thing we told user was unmount /usr/local and see if problem disappeared :)

17:15 <SiFuh> remiliascarlet: Not true

17:16 <SiFuh> darfo: True

17:17 <SiFuh> remiliascarlet: Untrue because OpenBSD ports creators basically stripped the right to use /etc altogether. Unless it is was an important system used application then /etc sure. Anything else got nothing but $HOME.

17:19 <remiliascarlet> SiFuh: Weird, because everything I install under OpenBSD that has a system-wide configuration always tends to go to /etc.

17:20 <SiFuh> Yes

17:20 <SiFuh> But many ports no longer go there at all now.

17:21 <remiliascarlet> I don't use the ports collection on OpenBSD, because I found that there's next to no difference in versioning from the binary packages anyway.

17:21 <SiFuh> If they are not important to the system then /etc access is abolished

17:21 <SiFuh> They are the same thing

17:22 <SiFuh> Binary or ports are the same thing. One is compiled by you and one is not

17:22 <remiliascarlet> I know.

17:22 <remiliascarlet> And every BSD has both binaries and ports.

17:22 <remiliascarlet> Meanwhile, Linux is either the one or the other, except for Gentoo since recently.

17:23 <remiliascarlet> Oh, and Void Linux.

17:24 <remiliascarlet> They too have both.