2021-05-23 01:45 _whitelogger has joined #osdev
2021-05-23 01:46 <mniip> klange, hey
2021-05-23 01:48 <klange> hey, thanks for the org reg, we got our last op finally - he was on vacation during the ruckus
2021-05-23 01:48 <mniip> PM?
2021-05-23 01:48 <klange> Can do!
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2021-05-23 01:56 klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev/2021-05-23 || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
2021-05-23 01:57 <klange> ... I left the date in that URL, oops.
2021-05-23 01:57 klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
2021-05-23 02:05 <air> who owns the logger site?
2021-05-23 02:06 <klange> whitequark, very trusted person
2021-05-23 02:06 <air> so not here right now
2021-05-23 02:07 <air> do you know if the logs are downloadable from there?
2021-05-23 02:07 <klange> Yes, not someone who would join the channel directly. I will inquire on how we can ingest them for pisg.
2021-05-23 02:07 <air> thanks
2021-05-23 02:08 <Oli> I have read this written int:  02:08 This logger supports retrieving complete channel archives in text via lftp. Use lftp -c 'mirror https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/$CHANNEL/index/'.
2021-05-23 02:08 <bslsk05> ​libera.irclog.whitequark.org: 401 Authorization Required
2021-05-23 02:09 <Oli> in*
2021-05-23 02:09 <klange> ez pz
2021-05-23 02:10 Izem has joined #osdev
2021-05-23 02:10 <air> klange: nm, front page of site explains how
2021-05-23 02:11 <klange> I think it needs auth so might need to ping whitequark again anyway.
2021-05-23 02:11 <air> oh
2021-05-23 02:17 <kazinsal> yeah, per the code it should be /osdev/index/YYYY-MM-DD.txt
2021-05-23 02:20 <air> thanks
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2021-05-23 04:15 <air> klange: are you changing the topic over there?
2021-05-23 04:16 <klange> I was going to wait, but I figured with the return of our "friend" now's a fine time to +m the whole place... so, yeah, I'll update the topic.
2021-05-23 04:21 <Oli> Do you consider a good idea to expand who is the person you mention about, and why do you consider a good idea for the other channel to be muted, for context?
2021-05-23 04:22 <klange> The last message sent to that channel is by a routine spammer who shows up every so often to ping a bunch of people to annoy them and spout insults and such. They are solely responsible for at least two thirds of that channel's banlist.
2021-05-23 04:22 <Oli> I am okay with using here, however I feel curious about why the move is now forced, if it is worth to be disclosed.
2021-05-23 04:22 <Oli> I understand.
2021-05-23 04:22 <kazinsal> He is either unmedicated or an AI.
2021-05-23 04:23 <klange> The channel is being muted to encourage interested users to centralize on this channel.
2021-05-23 04:23 <kazinsal> And if the latter, not a particularly sophisticated one.
2021-05-23 04:23 <Oli> Thank you for replying at my inquiry.
2021-05-23 04:26 <Oli> I feel content about the article on the web page at this URL:  https://wiki.osdev.org/Chat#IRC now points here:  Now I haven't a substancial reason to stay at both places.
2021-05-23 04:26 <bslsk05> ​wiki.osdev.org: Chat - OSDev Wiki
2021-05-23 04:28 <CompanionCube> shame about losing CrystalMath though, according to the statistics they were in the top 10 most active.
2021-05-23 04:29 clever has joined #osdev
2021-05-23 04:29 <air> why did we lose CrystalMath?
2021-05-23 04:30 <Oli> I will miss the contributions of our fellow retro operative system developer.
2021-05-23 04:30 <CompanionCube> air: well, they said they're very very pro-freenode
2021-05-23 04:30 <CompanionCube> so i expect they'll not be dropping by.
2021-05-23 04:32 doug16k has joined #osdev
2021-05-23 04:32 <air> well, we still have #1 ;)
2021-05-23 04:33 <Oli> And I appreciate much him being around.
2021-05-23 04:33 <Oli> It is so nice to read about all the knowledge doug16k shares.
2021-05-23 04:34 <doug16k> had to clean my computer radiator
2021-05-23 04:35 <doug16k> apparently it doesn't just keep working forever all by itself by being water cooling :P
2021-05-23 04:35 <air> hehe, I had to clean mine yesterday
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2021-05-23 06:09 <doug16k> made a little tool to analyze how fast every pair of cpus can spin on and ping pong a cache line: https://pasteall.org/media/3/1/31b83343e1b4cca35906062100b91ff4.png https://github.com/doug65536/xcpuperf
2021-05-23 06:09 <bslsk05> ​doug65536/xcpuperf - Detect cache line pingpong latency (0 forks/1 stargazers/MIT)
2021-05-23 06:10 <doug16k> that's my output on 3950x
2021-05-23 06:11 <doug16k> with 2400 memory clock
2021-05-23 06:12 <doug16k> one thread spins until it's even, then increments it, other spins until it's odd and increments it
2021-05-23 06:12 <doug16k> affinity forced onto every pair
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2021-05-23 06:16 <doug16k> so the worst time is 10x worse than best time
2021-05-23 06:16 <doug16k> almost
2021-05-23 06:17 <doug16k> 8.5
2021-05-23 06:17 <Affliction> hm
2021-05-23 06:18 <doug16k> png link is output of github repo
2021-05-23 06:18 <doug16k> each pair of cpus changing the line as soon as other thread changes the line
2021-05-23 06:19 <doug16k> and measure how long the ping pongs took
2021-05-23 06:19 <Affliction> oh, makes sense. 32 threads, 8 per CCX, 2 CCXes per die, 2 dies.
2021-05-23 06:19 <doug16k> yeah
2021-05-23 06:19 <doug16k> and the second 16 cpus are the hyperthread
2021-05-23 06:20 <Affliction> right
2021-05-23 06:25 <doug16k> haha you could delete all but line 1 of the makefile and it would still work right?
2021-05-23 06:26 <doug16k> https://github.com/doug65536/xcpuperf/blob/main/Makefile
2021-05-23 06:26 <bslsk05> ​github.com: xcpuperf/Makefile at main · doug65536/xcpuperf · GitHub
2021-05-23 06:26 <doug16k> builtin rule would figure out to make it from xcpuchk.cc right?
2021-05-23 06:27 <doug16k> oh it wouldn't say pthread. oh well
2021-05-23 06:27 <moon-child> I think you'd still need -pthread
2021-05-23 06:28 <doug16k> read your mind
2021-05-23 06:29 <moon-child> :)
2021-05-23 06:31 <doug16k> I can't believe I only found out this week that with just something.cc and nothing else, you can type `make something` and poof, it builds `something` with c++ compiler
2021-05-23 06:31 <clever> CFLAGS ?
2021-05-23 06:31 <doug16k> I mean even no makefile
2021-05-23 06:31 <clever> i like taking advantage of such patterns in makesfiles, makes it much harder to make mistakes
2021-05-23 06:32 <Izem> this is with gmake?
2021-05-23 06:32 <doug16k> I mean gnu make
2021-05-23 06:32 <Izem> g++ is the default compiler
2021-05-23 06:32 <Izem> yeah I call gmake gnu make
2021-05-23 06:32 <doug16k> I wasn't sure so I was fully specific
2021-05-23 06:32 <moon-child> actually I'm surprised libstdc++ doesn't link against pthread
2021-05-23 06:32 <Izem> but can be changed with the env var CXX
2021-05-23 06:34 <doug16k> yeah gnu libraries are still going as far as the non-reentrant libc code being default
2021-05-23 06:34 <doug16k> it 3/4 expects you to not even use threads at all
2021-05-23 06:35 <doug16k> strtok for example
2021-05-23 06:35 <doug16k> it doesn't even work with threads on right?
2021-05-23 06:35 <clever> just dont use it in any other thread? :D
2021-05-23 06:36 <doug16k> not that I have a lot of pity for strtok callers
2021-05-23 06:36 <doug16k> but my libc strtok is thread safe. if you are calling it, I want to help
2021-05-23 06:37 <doug16k> errno is already using TLS in 50,000 places. screw it, strtok is completely thread safe
2021-05-23 06:38 <doug16k> the very first instruction in my crt0 stores the thread id lol
2021-05-23 06:38 <doug16k> in TLS!
2021-05-23 06:39 <doug16k> cue do it live clip
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2021-05-23 06:41 <doug16k> the linear search in strtok will touch one pointer sized tls. big deal
2021-05-23 06:41 <doug16k> touch once on entry
2021-05-23 06:42 <sginsberg> If I create a ".section multiboot" for elf do I need to specifiy something for it to link properly? I have my entrypoint in there and it just disappears (objdump gives bogus start)
2021-05-23 06:43 <doug16k> no but you might want to wrap KEEP() around what's in there
2021-05-23 06:43 <doug16k> to take removing it off the table
2021-05-23 06:43 <doug16k> KEEP(*(.whatever))
2021-05-23 06:44 <doug16k> even if you tell ld to go nuts with gc, it'll keep that stuff
2021-05-23 06:44 <sginsberg> Well it removes both the table and the global entrypoint (it is the elf file entrypoint as well)
2021-05-23 06:44 <sginsberg> In that case
2021-05-23 06:45 <doug16k> if it is something that you know looks unused to the linker, you should put KEEP around it
2021-05-23 06:45 <doug16k> the linker is convinced nobody references it, ever
2021-05-23 06:45 <doug16k> KEEP says yes I do
2021-05-23 06:46 <sginsberg> Will try that a mom
2021-05-23 06:46 <doug16k> ld says really, oh sorry!
2021-05-23 06:48 <sginsberg> It did nothing
2021-05-23 06:48 <doug16k> the other thing it could be is that ld decided to put it too far away from the beginning of the executable
2021-05-23 06:49 <doug16k> try adding -Wl,-z,max-page-size=4096
2021-05-23 06:49 <doug16k> can you show objdump -p -h your-kernel in a pastebin
2021-05-23 06:50 <sginsberg> Sure
2021-05-23 06:51 <doug16k> I have a feeling you didn't give any section flags, and it hasn't a clue whether it is executable or writable or what and didn't do the right heuristics to fix it up
2021-05-23 06:52 <sginsberg> www.pastebin.com/kBW1ZfRK
2021-05-23 06:52 <bslsk05> ​www.pastebin.com: objdump -p -h mytestmytest:     file format elf32-i386Program Header: - Pastebin.com
2021-05-23 06:52 <sginsberg> Yes doug16k something like that
2021-05-23 06:52 <doug16k> why does it load to zero
2021-05-23 06:53 <doug16k> I wouldn't even try to load that
2021-05-23 06:53 <kazinsal> where the heck is your .text segment
2021-05-23 06:53 <doug16k> you should not have a separate multiboot output section
2021-05-23 06:54 <doug16k> you should practically put a gun to its head and put your input sections at the start of the .text section
2021-05-23 06:54 <doug16k> it will have no choice but to put it close to the start
2021-05-23 06:54 <doug16k> then if you put max page size 4K it is highly likely .text will go first
2021-05-23 06:54 <kazinsal> I'm more concerned about the complete lack of .text/.data/.rodata/.bss in that section list
2021-05-23 06:55 * clever gets example
2021-05-23 06:55 <doug16k> they mentioned earlier that their entry point is in multiboot section
2021-05-23 06:55 <clever> https://github.com/librerpi/lk-overlay/blob/master/platform/bcm28xx/bootcode.ld#L4-L18
2021-05-23 06:55 <bslsk05> ​github.com: lk-overlay/bootcode.ld at master · librerpi/lk-overlay · GitHub
2021-05-23 06:55 <doug16k> I agree it is weird
2021-05-23 06:55 <kazinsal> :stonk:
2021-05-23 06:55 <clever> in my case, the 512 byte vector table should be at the start, and _start should be right after
2021-05-23 06:55 <sginsberg> kazinsal: I haven’t specifies anything for them
2021-05-23 06:55 <clever> so i put _start into .text.start, and poppped that at the start of .text
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2021-05-23 06:55 <sginsberg> Do you want the makefile as well?
2021-05-23 06:56 <doug16k> yeah do what clever said
2021-05-23 06:56 <doug16k> you emit the stuff to a special named input section in the source, then in linker force that into a particular place in an existing output section
2021-05-23 06:56 <doug16k> that's the best approach
2021-05-23 06:56 <clever> the linker script i linked, ensures that .text contains .text.start .text and .text.*, in that order
2021-05-23 06:57 <kazinsal> yeah I just throw the .multiboot and entry stuff at the start of the text segment and call it a day
2021-05-23 06:57 <sginsberg> kazinsal: removing .section gives me a .text though
2021-05-23 06:57 <doug16k> sginsberg, what's wrong with .text
2021-05-23 06:57 <kazinsal> I like it when my elf contains a .text
2021-05-23 06:57 <doug16k> if you fight ld, you will lose
2021-05-23 06:57 <kazinsal> that means it has code in it
2021-05-23 06:57 <doug16k> ld will beat you
2021-05-23 06:58 <doug16k> ld is the train man
2021-05-23 06:58 <doug16k> send neo flying
2021-05-23 06:59 <doug16k> no seriously though, ld has heuristics that make it do the right thing for standard section names
2021-05-23 06:59 <moon-child> I got my stuff working with tcc
2021-05-23 06:59 <moon-child> download and compile two cross-compilers (one for efi) in seconds--it's really nice
2021-05-23 06:59 <moon-child> except tcc's linker doesn't understand linker scripts, so I still have to use ld
2021-05-23 07:00 <moon-child> :/
2021-05-23 07:02 <doug16k> if you don't use the normal sections, then all the onus is on you to always say the section flags correctly in the source code to say executability and writability and to place it into an explicit output section with compatible section flags
2021-05-23 07:02 <doug16k> sorry place it in an explicit program header
2021-05-23 07:03 <sginsberg> So I tried putting multiboot into text
2021-05-23 07:03 <clever> https://github.com/librerpi/lk-overlay/blob/master/platform/bcm28xx/start4/start4.ld
2021-05-23 07:03 <bslsk05> ​github.com: lk-overlay/start4.ld at master · librerpi/lk-overlay · GitHub
2021-05-23 07:03 <doug16k> with compatible flags
2021-05-23 07:03 <clever> doug16k: i should probably fix this up then?
2021-05-23 07:03 <clever> doug16k: for reasons outside of my control (closed-source bootloader), those sections must be named as such, in the elf headers
2021-05-23 07:03 <doug16k> what does objdump -p say
2021-05-23 07:03 <sginsberg> Start address is still wrong though
2021-05-23 07:04 <doug16k> clever, if program headers cover it all ok, it's good enough
2021-05-23 07:05 <doug16k> clever, you could "help it" by doing asm like this: .section .text.bootloader_state, "x" to make the input section say it wants executable flags
2021-05-23 07:05 <clever> doug16k: `objdump -p` doesnt really mention it, its between .text and .data, and the whole load is one LOAD entry
2021-05-23 07:05 <clever> both are data
2021-05-23 07:05 <doug16k> if objdump -p doesn't mention it then it won't be loaded
2021-05-23 07:05 <clever>     LOAD off    0x00001000 vaddr 0xc4000000 paddr 0xc4000000 align 2**12
2021-05-23 07:05 <clever>          filesz 0x000247f0 memsz 0x000270c0 flags rwx
2021-05-23 07:05 <doug16k> why would it be loaded
2021-05-23 07:05 <sginsberg> www.pastebin.com/0QipV6d3
2021-05-23 07:05 <bslsk05> ​www.pastebin.com: objdump -p  mytestmytest:     file format elf32-i386Program Header: - Pastebin.com
2021-05-23 07:05 <clever> this is all that `objdump -p` said
2021-05-23 07:06 <sginsberg> Ah
2021-05-23 07:06 <sginsberg> Nvm
2021-05-23 07:06 <clever> c401d774 g     O .text.bootloader_state 00000010 bootloader_state
2021-05-23 07:06 <doug16k> clever, yeah that covers c4000000 thru that plus 0x270c0
2021-05-23 07:06 <clever> doug16k: and those custom sections, are within the range
2021-05-23 07:06 <clever> yep
2021-05-23 07:07 <doug16k> then you are fine
2021-05-23 07:07 <clever> i think the only "problem", is that .rodata is writable, and .rodata+.data are executable
2021-05-23 07:07 <doug16k> thing is it can be that you don't have any flags and it doesn't put it in any header
2021-05-23 07:07 <clever> but i dont know how to block those at runtime anyways
2021-05-23 07:08 <doug16k> but for the standard section names, it just knows the flags
2021-05-23 07:08 <doug16k> even if you didn't help
2021-05-23 07:08 <clever> .text.firmware_rev is an uint32_t[4] of flags, to advertise what this .elf file supports
2021-05-23 07:08 <doug16k> I wish I knew exactly when it does weird stuff like that
2021-05-23 07:08 <clever> if the flags arent compatible, the bootloader will refuse to execute it
2021-05-23 07:08 <doug16k> like not including something in any program header
2021-05-23 07:09 <clever> .text.bootloader_state is slightly more bi-directional, if it contains a magic#, the firmware will insert a pointer to a tagged list in the [1] slot
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2021-05-23 07:09 <clever> so your .text.bootloader_state section is mutated by the bootloader during loading
2021-05-23 07:09 <sginsberg> (I think I somewhat solved it by putting the entry outside of the .multiboot)
2021-05-23 07:10 <doug16k> sginsberg, put your stuff in the appropriate normal named output section and you will have happy linking
2021-05-23 07:11 <sginsberg> What I don’t understand is it fails silently to link the entrypoint
2021-05-23 07:11 <doug16k> do you have a linker script?
2021-05-23 07:12 <sginsberg> I am trying both with and without one
2021-05-23 07:13 <clever> doug16k: https://gist.github.com/cleverca22/2ea8c5ad903239e2e00030859a59ac90 ah, -S shows a lot more
2021-05-23 07:13 <bslsk05> ​gist.github.com: gist:2ea8c5ad903239e2e00030859a59ac90 · GitHub
2021-05-23 07:13 <doug16k> ya objdump -h shows that
2021-05-23 07:13 <doug16k> pretty sane order
2021-05-23 07:15 <clever> gist updated with a -h output
2021-05-23 07:15 <sginsberg> www.pastebin.com/ekJyUpwS I know I know this is my first attempt ...
2021-05-23 07:15 <bslsk05> ​www.pastebin.com: ENTRY(entry)PHDRS{  headers PT_PHDR PHDRS;  text PT_LOAD FILEHDR PHD - Pastebin.com
2021-05-23 07:15 <sginsberg> Wait
2021-05-23 07:15 <sginsberg> Wront file
2021-05-23 07:16 <clever> 32 bytes*
2021-05-23 07:16 <clever> doug16k: most odd part in my gist, is that there is 32bits of writable sections, between 2 read-only sections
2021-05-23 07:16 <sginsberg> Ignore the bss entry I got nothing in there yet
2021-05-23 07:16 <doug16k> clever, if I were a broken bootloader I would be all broken from permission changing without page alignment between .text and .text.bootloader_state :D
2021-05-23 07:16 <sginsberg> Copy pasta
2021-05-23 07:16 <doug16k> went from readonly to readwrite in middle of page right?
2021-05-23 07:17 <clever> doug16k: yep, and not even 16 byte aligned!
2021-05-23 07:17 <sginsberg> doug16k: with that ^ script entrypoint is gone again
2021-05-23 07:17 <clever> but there is no MMU on this arch, so pages dont mean much
2021-05-23 07:17 <doug16k> clever, ya but ld is obsessed with mmus
2021-05-23 07:19 <doug16k> something that harmless could mean it being weird and showing dwarf errors or something
2021-05-23 07:19 <clever> ive not done much with the debug info yet
2021-05-23 07:20 <doug16k> does it think max page size is 1
2021-05-23 07:20 <doug16k> can you do that?
2021-05-23 07:20 <clever> how would i know?
2021-05-23 07:20 <doug16k> I try not to piss ld off nowadays
2021-05-23 07:21 <doug16k> probably fine
2021-05-23 07:21 <clever> the most adventurous ive been, was trying to make a .elf where the _start symbol, was 0x200 bytes into the .elf binary itself, and the linker also knows its at 0x8000_0200
2021-05-23 07:21 <clever> so i could run the .elf without an objcopy -> .bin step
2021-05-23 07:22 <clever> but it broke easily
2021-05-23 07:22 <doug16k> I am superstitious from multiple times where I did something unusual and it made the debug info all screwy and I later was able to fix the code and fix it
2021-05-23 07:23 <doug16k> gdb never ever crashes or asserts out for me
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2021-05-23 07:23 <clever> gdb doesnt even support this arch
2021-05-23 07:23 <clever> and no gdb stub exists, and the jtag isnt documented
2021-05-23 07:23 <doug16k> it's almost as if they don't want a clever person reversing it
2021-05-23 07:23 <clever> :D
2021-05-23 07:24 <clever> i think the debug info is still mostly standard, they released an unstripped file by accident once
2021-05-23 07:24 <clever> and ghidra could understand the debug info
2021-05-23 07:24 <clever> it was extracting debug info on structs
2021-05-23 07:25 <doug16k> you can force objdump to dump the debug info
2021-05-23 07:26 <doug16k> neatest is dumping the decoded-lines
2021-05-23 07:26 <clever> --dwarf-start ?
2021-05-23 07:26 <doug16k> you get line number vs start address list
2021-05-23 07:26 <doug16k> --dwarf[=rawline,=decodedline,=info,=abbrev,=pubnames] etc...
2021-05-23 07:27 <doug16k> there are 3 or 4 more lines of other = things
2021-05-23 07:27 <clever> ah, just scrolled up and found that one
2021-05-23 07:27 <doug16k> decodedline is awesome
2021-05-23 07:27 <doug16k> I extract that for my perf top
2021-05-23 07:27 <doug16k> for display of course
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2021-05-23 07:27 <clever> [nix-shell:~/apps/rpi/lk-overlay]$ vc4-elf-objdump --dwarf=decodedline -d build-rpi4-start4/lk.elf | less
2021-05-23 07:28 <doug16k> data collection is just a silly number of pc snapshots
2021-05-23 07:28 <doug16k> ip, rip, instruction pointer
2021-05-23 07:28 <clever> yep, this looks like what you might use when mapping a PC back to a line#
2021-05-23 07:28 <clever> previously, i just ran `objdump -S` and looked the PC up manually
2021-05-23 07:28 <doug16k> so my profiler gathers line level perf top
2021-05-23 07:29 <doug16k> systemwide
2021-05-23 07:29 <doug16k> same way - perf counters and NMI
2021-05-23 07:29 <doug16k> NMI so I can get samples in a spinlock or something
2021-05-23 07:29 <doug16k> something that cli
2021-05-23 07:30 <doug16k> I did the crazy stuff to make that guaranteed swapgs right
2021-05-23 07:30 <clever> sadly, decodedline finds nothing at all in the official firmware
2021-05-23 07:32 <geist> ah okay
2021-05-23 07:32 <geist> i was away but i see the moved channel
2021-05-23 07:32 <geist> sure. for lack of anyone else doing something, klange moved on it and go klange!
2021-05-23 07:33 <clever> 2021-05-23 02:40:10<CrystalMath> sorry for the PM, but if you want to remain on freenode and talk about OS development, please join ##osdev
2021-05-23 07:33 <clever> and others are trying to hijack the community in PM
2021-05-23 07:34 <doug16k> ya -S way is fine
2021-05-23 07:34 <doug16k> decodedline is more for when you want to brute force get all the line number info
2021-05-23 07:35 <GreaseMonkey> might be worth updating the topic
2021-05-23 07:35 <geist> dunno. i'll just follow where the center is, and it's clearly here now so there ya go
2021-05-23 07:35 <geist> no interest in politics
2021-05-23 07:36 <clever> doug16k: trying to make sense of --dward=frames now...
2021-05-23 07:36 <clever> ah, frames-interp looks more readable
2021-05-23 07:37 <doug16k> tells you at each starting point in the code, how do you put it back to caller's state (restore callee saved stuff)
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2021-05-23 07:37 <doug16k> to unwind or stack trace
2021-05-23 07:38 <clever> doug16k: it starts out with `r0 + 0`, and from knowing the asm, i know that nothing needs to change on that line
2021-05-23 07:38 <doug16k> each point is an accumulation of the effect of everything above it up to the startproc
2021-05-23 07:38 <clever> doug16k: on the line of asm where `add sp, sp, -4` gets ran, the debug info claims `r0 + 4`
2021-05-23 07:38 <clever> why is it saying r0 and not sp?
2021-05-23 07:38 <doug16k> they assign numbers to the registers for the dwarf info
2021-05-23 07:39 <doug16k> they can be weird?
2021-05-23 07:39 <clever> that could be it
2021-05-23 07:39 <clever> there is also an `add r6, sp, 0` which just copies sp->r6, and the debug info is claiming `r0+8` now
2021-05-23 07:39 <doug16k> frame info is obsessed with the stack pointer and where you put callee stuff relative to that, mostly anyway
2021-05-23 07:39 <doug16k> it would make a lot of sense to make that 0
2021-05-23 07:40 <clever> r6 is used as a frame pointer in this toolchain
2021-05-23 07:40 <doug16k> but neat thing about frame info is, you can be all weird and use anything for the frame pointer
2021-05-23 07:40 <doug16k> and even go weird and say stuff is saved in a register, not stack frame
2021-05-23 07:41 <doug16k> like the return address is in some weird register
2021-05-23 07:41 <doug16k> stack unwind would use it
2021-05-23 07:41 <clever> doug16k: and for the official firmware, it is reporting such state, and in more depth too
2021-05-23 07:42 <doug16k> you know how x86_64 puts return address in rcx? my frame info says the caller's rip is in rcx and gdb says no problem and understands completely
2021-05-23 07:42 <doug16k> syscall
2021-05-23 07:42 <clever> neat
2021-05-23 07:44 <doug16k> then at some point I put it down on the stack and then emit a cfi that says no from here on get it relative to the cfa memory
2021-05-23 07:44 <doug16k> wherever I feel like putting it
2021-05-23 07:45 <doug16k> in the cfa region
2021-05-23 07:45 <doug16k> the stack
2021-05-23 08:01 <geist> hmm, now i gotta remember what I think Mutabah was doing to get the server to show up in the status bar of irssi
2021-05-23 08:08 <geist> ah i see it
2021-05-23 08:08 <geist> 18:38 < Mutabah> in the config file, under `statusbar` `window = "{sb $winref:$tag/$itemname{sbmode $M}}";`
2021-05-23 08:10 <geist> lemme see
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2021-05-23 08:11 <geist> okay, yeah that worked, neat
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2021-05-23 08:47 <geist> looks like you can register multiple nicks via nickserv group
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2021-05-23 10:00 <whitequark> air: regarding downloading of logs, there's some kind of issue with the queries used to do that with postgres specifically; i had to require authentication on that endpoint unfortunately
2021-05-23 10:00 <whitequark> that might no longer be a problem with recent postgres, needs to be checked though
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2021-05-23 10:27 <whitequark> nope, still a problem
2021-05-23 10:28 <whitequark> it's super frustrating because it's specifically *generating the index page* that's a problem, not serving the logs themselves, which you'd think would be computationally far worse
2021-05-23 10:29 <air> ok
2021-05-23 10:29 <klange> I think our primary purpose for raw access is for the pisg processing, so if the logs can be served without the problematic index...
2021-05-23 10:29 <klange> also, weird
2021-05-23 10:30 <klange> (also thanks for stopping by to check in on things ;) )
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2021-05-23 10:30 <whitequark> klange: you can directly access https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev/2021-05-23.txt for example
2021-05-23 10:30 <air> are you able to use .htaccess to only auth the index?
2021-05-23 10:30 <whitequark> (just fixed that so that it actually works)
2021-05-23 10:31 <whitequark> (there was an issue with a sinatra upgrade some time earlier)
2021-05-23 10:31 <klange> yay :D
2021-05-23 10:31 <whitequark> you can also do it monthly https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev/2021-05.txt
2021-05-23 10:31 <whitequark> or omit joins/parts https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev/2021-05.txt?quiet=1
2021-05-23 10:31 <whitequark> air: there's no htaccess, it's configured in nginx
2021-05-23 10:32 pretty_dumm_guy has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.2-dev]
2021-05-23 10:32 <XgF> (hmm, the .txt file are served without a character set so I see UTF-8 mojibake)
2021-05-23 10:32 <air> so the index is redirecting to avoid issues?
2021-05-23 10:33 <whitequark> oh, hm
2021-05-23 10:33 <whitequark> XgF: Content-Type: text/plain; encoding=utf-8 ?
2021-05-23 10:33 <whitequark> or something?
2021-05-23 10:33 <klange> something like that
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2021-05-23 10:33 <whitequark> charset=utf-8 it seems
2021-05-23 10:34 <whitequark> XgF: where are you testing this?
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2021-05-23 10:34 <XgF> whitequark: Firefox! Maybe the dev tools being odd?
2021-05-23 10:34 <whitequark> XgF: no like, which url?
2021-05-23 10:34 <XgF> https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev/2021-05-23.txt
2021-05-23 10:35 <whitequark> wait, that has unicode in it?
2021-05-23 10:35 <whitequark> nvm found it
2021-05-23 10:36 <klange> snake messages, generally, we don't speak too many other languages here so it's usually just midline dots from webpage <titles>
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2021-05-23 10:36 * XgF ensures some more Unicode £€
2021-05-23 10:37 <GeDaMo> ಠ_ಠ
2021-05-23 10:37 <heat> damn, we've moved permanently
2021-05-23 10:37 <klange> It was a surprisingly unanimous decision, though the timing was decided by _other_ outside factors.
2021-05-23 10:39 _whitelogger has joined #osdev
2021-05-23 10:39 <air> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
2021-05-23 10:39 <klange> yep, the dots are now dotty
2021-05-23 10:40 <XgF> hurrah :-)
2021-05-23 10:40 <sortie> Oh key klange, can I get flags for #osdev please?
2021-05-23 10:40 <whitequark> klange: what is "pisg" by the way
2021-05-23 10:40 <klange> let me see, libera's chanserv is a different implementation
2021-05-23 10:40 <air> sortie: ⚑
2021-05-23 10:40 <klange> whitequark: ancient irc log scraping thing that generates stat pages
2021-05-23 10:40 <klange> and has a funny name
2021-05-23 10:40 <sortie> Yo there air
2021-05-23 10:40 <whitequark> ahh
2021-05-23 10:40 <sortie> How are you?
2021-05-23 10:40 <sortie> I have coffee and a fresh ircd port
2021-05-23 10:41 <immibis> yay, one more channel i can leave to free up space on chatzilla's space-limited channel bar. (Anyone have client suggestions? chatzilla is a pretty much exactly what I'm looking for, except for this one problem)
2021-05-23 10:41 <klange> it's an initialism... I hope, though I read it as an acronym: Perl IRC Statistics Generator
2021-05-23 10:41 <heat> oh god the server is lagging hard
2021-05-23 10:41 <heat> I clicked the log and I read messages a solid 10-20 seconds before they hit my client
2021-05-23 10:42 <heat> immibis, I use hexchat, works fine
2021-05-23 10:44 <klange> sortie: okay you should have all the bits I can give
2021-05-23 10:44 <sortie> klange: Woohoo :)
2021-05-23 10:45 <sortie> klange: Ah neat, y'all went ahead with a +m move to libera.chat after all
2021-05-23 10:47 <klange> It was a sudden action as one of our "old friends" showed up.
2021-05-23 10:47 <klange> And there was general agreement on it, so, it happened.
2021-05-23 10:47 <heat> oooooohhhhhhh
2021-05-23 10:47 <heat> lol
2021-05-23 10:47 <air> ok, hopefully the logs will download and generate stats when today ends
2021-05-23 10:47 <sortie> Oh geez which old friend? The GPU markov bot or much, much worse?
2021-05-23 10:47 <klange> Yes!
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2021-05-23 10:48 <heat> I wonder if he's going to continue spamming freenode #osdev
2021-05-23 10:49 <heat> or at least trying to, that is
2021-05-23 10:49 <sortie> klange: Well then I am almost entirely off freenode besides a corp channel I didn't forcibly move just yet and an inactive topical channel where I talk to the idlers every few eyars
2021-05-23 10:49 <air> and http://osdev-logs.qzx.com redirects to new site
2021-05-23 10:49 <bslsk05> ​redirect -> bespin.org: #OSDEV on Libera
2021-05-23 10:52 <klange> I am out of everything except #osdev which I'm monitoring - want to see if it gets captured - and a channel that has moved but we need to make sure one particular members gets the message.
2021-05-23 10:53 <air> captured?
2021-05-23 10:53 <heat> yeah
2021-05-23 10:53 <klange> Lee has apparently been reclaiming channels that move.
2021-05-23 10:53 <heat> like they did with that hacker news channel
2021-05-23 10:55 <j`ey> I think it wouldn't be terrible if they "took" #osdev back, it's a general purpose topic!
2021-05-23 10:55 <Affliction> Not going to operationally interfere, but taking channels that move? perfect.
2021-05-23 10:55 <air> makes sense, you don't want a channel with a topic redirecting users to another network
2021-05-23 10:55 <Affliction> Freenode has always had 'this channel has moved' channels
2021-05-23 10:56 <air> but not this many all at once
2021-05-23 10:56 <heat> j`ey: it's not so much the hijacking of the channel, they try to hijack the community
2021-05-23 10:56 <heat> fragmentation bad :(
2021-05-23 10:56 <j`ey> Affliction: to different networks, or just names?
2021-05-23 10:56 <Affliction> networks
2021-05-23 10:57 <Affliction> I've run into a few over the years
2021-05-23 10:57 <klange> Fragmentation _is_ bad, which is why we're all moving here :)
2021-05-23 10:57 <j`ey> except cyrstalmath :P
2021-05-23 10:57 <heat> oh no!
2021-05-23 10:57 <heat> anyway
2021-05-23 10:57 <klange> Well if he trusts the crown prince more than me, he's free to stay with him.
2021-05-23 10:58 <klange> He can make his own ##osdev, with blackjack and deposed Korean royalty.
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2021-05-23 10:59 <sortie> Well even if they reclaim these channels, the core of the community has already moved
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2021-05-23 10:59 <sortie> Anything left will be a poor imitation
2021-05-23 10:59 <sortie> Totally the right move to not fragment the community though :)
2021-05-23 10:59 <klange> most people get to "here" from the wiki page anyway, and it has been updated appropriately and I have been sure to express the full context of the situation to the best of my abilities.
2021-05-23 11:01 <heat> maybe a forum post would be nice?
2021-05-23 11:02 <klange> I can post one in the announcements board, sure.
2021-05-23 11:03 <Belxjander> need to sort out libera and oftc znc entries then...
2021-05-23 11:03 <j`ey> i thought this channel wasnt associated with the wiki/forums, thats what people have said :P
2021-05-23 11:04 <klange> We've gone from "coincidentally has overlap in staff" to "now connected, but still not the same entities".
2021-05-23 11:05 <klange> eg. #osdev is not "osdev.org's IRC channel" or the reverse, but we're in a commited relationship and go to movies and eat dinner together
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2021-05-23 11:06 <heat> j`ey: yeah but I was thinking it might be nice to let non-regulars know
2021-05-23 11:21 <air> so what is third network choice if osdev is reclaimed and libera dies?
2021-05-23 11:22 <froggey> oftc got mentioned a bunch
2021-05-23 11:22 <klange> If all goes sour, I'll just start up my own server again.
2021-05-23 11:24 <dormito> The problem with "reclaiming" channels is: channels, nicks, etc all have exirations if unused, but thats tampering with the services to fullfill ones own goals, which mean theres no reason to trust any of the services there now.
2021-05-23 11:25 <sortie> k. Now I just need to implement dynamic linking.
2021-05-23 11:26 <klange> You should do that, and do it correctly following all the rules unlike me.
2021-05-23 11:28 <gruetzkopf> heh, i only noticed this channel on this network ( by overlap with other channels i usually frequent that have moved ) )
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2021-05-23 12:09 * gog meows
2021-05-23 12:16 <heat> sortie: port another dynamic linker and be done with it
2021-05-23 12:17 <heat> dynamic linking is hard :(
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2021-05-23 12:17 <sortie> heat: Why dynamically link a set of built in modules when I can just haxxx and static link them :)
2021-05-23 12:17 <sortie> Introducing fake dlopen that just has a table of ‘modules’ that are already statically linked into the program
2021-05-23 12:19 <heat> ahhhhhh
2021-05-23 12:19 <heat> can you even do that without actual linker hacks?
2021-05-23 12:23 <sortie> I mean I gotta link the .a files onto the executable
2021-05-23 12:37 <klange> oops I made literally zero progress on my network stack this weekend because I was too busy trying to fix multicore synchronization issues and dealing with this IRC nonsense
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2021-05-23 12:43 <klange> I feel like the are some obvious-to-me-but-not-quite-sure-how-to-fix-them issues remaining, which I guess is good?
2021-05-23 12:44 <klange> The further I get with debugging, though, the harder it gets... you fix the obvious issues and now you've got some one-in-a-million event happening you can't build a test case to reproduce...
2021-05-23 12:47 <Arthuria> So in my kernel I am in protected mode, can I trigger a breakpoint under QEMU/GDB. Like INT 3, or do I need to set this up in my code. E.g. when my code gets to a CLI;HLT, I can break in via gdb and see my stack/registers. But I'd prefer a bp and resume
2021-05-23 12:47 <heat> I'm stuck with an asan issue because I'm too lazy to fix it
2021-05-23 12:48 <heat> and I can't progress in other areas too because I'm scared all this code is wrong
2021-05-23 12:49 <sortie> OK ircd made it to the mainloop
2021-05-23 12:50 <heat> wooohoo
2021-05-23 12:50 <sortie> But seems to be stuck in some sort of 100% CPU usage loop
2021-05-23 12:50 <sortie> Alas I don't have strace..
2021-05-23 12:51 <heat> i have a broken strace
2021-05-23 12:51 * heat should get a ptrace-like interface going and switch to that
2021-05-23 12:53 <heat> my backlog of things that I want to work on is impressively big and my lazyness is even bigger
2021-05-23 12:57 <sortie> OK neat it seems to spend most of the CPU time in the kernel
2021-05-23 12:57 <klange> sortie: is this the original WiZ ircd?
2021-05-23 12:59 <sortie> klange: State of the art solanum
2021-05-23 13:00 <j`ey> sortie: you going to donate a seerver running sortix to libera? :P
2021-05-23 13:02 <heat> not if onyx gets there first
2021-05-23 13:08 <sortie> My gut feeling is that there's something wrong with the main loop's polling
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2021-05-23 13:22 <gruetzkopf> hm, i should get solanum running on sgi irix :>
2021-05-23 13:29 <sortie> Ugh it was testing for the non-standard sys/poll.h instead of the standard poll.h so it wasn't using poll(2) but select(2)..
2021-05-23 13:38 <heat> do you not have select?
2021-05-23 13:38 <klange> select is for weenies
2021-05-23 13:39 <sortie> heat: I do have select but it's awful and I only emulate it in terms of poll(2). Might've been slightly wrong with the timeout or something.
2021-05-23 13:39 <sortie> It now power idles correctly and the main loop isn't busy. New connections get disconnected without reason after a second now tho.
2021-05-23 13:39 <heat> oh
2021-05-23 13:40 <heat> i thought about that but it seems really slow in user space so I just did it in the kernel
2021-05-23 13:40 <heat> thankfully my poll backend is flexible enough that it worked out really smoothly for select too
2021-05-23 13:43 <klange> Mine is... possibly still the cause of some of my multicore issues.
2021-05-23 13:43 <klange> Though I did fix most of it.
2021-05-23 13:49 <klange> Linux says the apicid for the second physical core on my t410 is 4... so I guess I'll have to fix the 1-1 mapping I was using temporarily in qemu... easy enough, something to do tomorrow.
2021-05-23 13:49 <klange> If I can get two cores up on that thinkpad I'll have a little party
2021-05-23 13:49 <klange> But for now, good night!
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2021-05-23 14:55 <jimbzy> I have arrived!
2021-05-23 14:58 <Oli> Welcome, jimbzy!
2021-05-23 14:58 <Oli> And good night, klange!
2021-05-23 15:04 <meisaka> we all have arrived :3
2021-05-23 15:10 <sham1> Yay
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2021-05-23 15:42 <gog> the gang's all here
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2021-05-23 15:53 <vancz> can anyone recommend material to read about writing portable c
2021-05-23 15:59 <dormito> posix, or maybe the relevent C standard are the first that come to mind.
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2021-05-23 16:28 <Oli> I was about to mention about this C book and link to one, and checking it, realized it was a traditional Chinese version of the one I was thinking about linking here.
2021-05-23 16:29 <Oli> I recommend to read The C Programming Book's second edition, by Brian W.  Kernighan and Dennis M.  Richie:  They are the creators of this book are also the creators of the C programming language.
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2021-05-23 17:50 immibis_ is now known as immibis
2021-05-23 17:57 <immibis> https://www.devever.net/~hl/freenode_abuse - expect freenode staff to put the osdev channel back on freenode at some point
2021-05-23 17:57 <bslsk05> ​www.devever.net: Freenode IRC operators now engaging in routine abuses of power
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2021-05-23 18:03 <GeDaMo> I saw this earlier https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/pull/513/commits/2037126831a84c57f978268f090fc663cf43ed7a
2021-05-23 18:03 <bslsk05> ​github.com: policy update by realrasengan · Pull Request #513 · freenode/web-7.0 · GitHub
2021-05-23 18:04 <clever> GeDaMo: yeah, they basically just changed the rules, so what immibis pasted wouldnt be a violation
2021-05-23 18:04 <clever> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27256843 Freenode removes hate speech rule
2021-05-23 18:04 <bslsk05> ​news.ycombinator.com: Freenode removes hate speech rule | Hacker News
2021-05-23 18:05 <clever> GeDaMo: and what i didnt notice at first, is that on your diff, they also removed the rules about hate-speech
2021-05-23 18:05 <clever> so hate-speed is now allowed on freenode, lol
2021-05-23 18:05 <GeDaMo> I'm sure that's just a coincidence :|
2021-05-23 18:06 <clever> https://matrix-client.matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/jfutPHxbkOpoQKoeBBujjYRB
2021-05-23 18:06 <clever> GeDaMo: ive also seen other reports, claiming that both sides where over-reacting to the other side
2021-05-23 18:07 <clever> X did Y, take away his powers
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2021-05-23 18:07 <clever> oh no, i lost my powers, its a hostile take-over!
2021-05-23 18:07 <clever> no, your hostile!!
2021-05-23 18:07 <clever> GeDaMo: but that snowball doesnt explain the rapid rule changes....
2021-05-23 18:08 pretty_dumm_guy has joined #osdev
2021-05-23 18:11 <heat> oh yay you can post porn on freenode node
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2021-05-23 18:11 <heat> just what it was missing honestly
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2021-05-23 18:12 <GeDaMo> Yes, this is how to modernize IRC :|
2021-05-23 18:14 <immibis> clever: since hate speech is now on-topic on freenode I took the liberty of registering ##transphobia, ##homophobia, and ##nazis. don't know what to do with that since i'm not a homophobe, transphobe, or nazi, but eh
2021-05-23 18:14 <clever> :D
2021-05-23 18:16 <CompanionCube> immibis: that's probably squatting but who cares it's gppd
2021-05-23 18:16 <CompanionCube> also /me knows who will probably ask freenode staff for the channel
2021-05-23 18:17 <heat> lol
2021-05-23 18:17 <immibis> i don't even have any nazi friends to invite while I get popcorn. which is a good thing, of course, not having nazi friends
2021-05-23 18:17 <doug16k> immibis, merge them together into a chat session only rivalled by a youtube live chat stream
2021-05-23 18:18 <CompanionCube> (##osdev has so far flopped, maybe a forced redirect will bring it to life? ;p)
2021-05-23 18:18 <heat> ##osdev exists?
2021-05-23 18:18 <doug16k> you forgot ##covidsfake
2021-05-23 18:18 <GeDaMo> Can you have them re-direct to each other in a circle?
2021-05-23 18:18 <immibis> flopped? the freenode one was shut down by ops
2021-05-23 18:18 <immibis> chanops not network ops
2021-05-23 18:18 <immibis> this is now the only osdev channel
2021-05-23 18:20 <doug16k> also, where's ##themoondoesntexist and ##iseedeadpeople
2021-05-23 18:20 <immibis> i think the other one is +m. Not as serious as ##hamradio, which was set to a limit of 1 user and then everyone was kicked
2021-05-23 18:20 <immibis> those aren't hate speech
2021-05-23 18:20 <CompanionCube> someone decided to make it a thing, someone mentioned it here, i joined because why not
2021-05-23 18:21 <immibis> ?
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2021-05-23 18:21 <cmrg> There's also Cordless that might work on OpenBSD. It's a TUI client. But it's best to not use Discord at all :-)
2021-05-23 18:22 <heat> i like discord
2021-05-23 18:23 <gog> maybe i'll go back to freenode and sit in ##transphobia and cyberbully transphobes
2021-05-23 18:24 <gog> but that loses its appeal fast
2021-05-23 18:24 <heat> it's empty :(((
2021-05-23 18:24 <gog> lol good
2021-05-23 18:25 <gog> don't feel like being subjected to "40% lol two genders attack helicopter kek"
2021-05-23 18:26 <CompanionCube> what about ##terf
2021-05-23 18:26 <gog> ##gendercritical pls
2021-05-23 18:26 <heat> what's terf?
2021-05-23 18:26 <gog> terf is a slur
2021-05-23 18:26 <gog> :p
2021-05-23 18:26 <gog> Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist
2021-05-23 18:27 <heat> huh
2021-05-23 18:31 <gog> it's not actually a slur, that's just what terfs say when you rightly accuse them of being terfs
2021-05-23 18:31 <gog> but that's way off topic and i won't get into the weeds about it :p
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2021-05-23 18:39 <kazinsal> terfs are what we call "acceptable targets"
2021-05-23 18:42 <cd> ^
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2021-05-23 19:33 <johnjay> i heard qcow2 has some kind of version/state saving feature. do people actually use that.
2021-05-23 19:33 <johnjay> i guess it's called snapshotting
2021-05-23 19:34 <johnjay> as opposed to just something like fedora.~1~, fedora.~2~, etc
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2021-05-23 19:39 <jimbzy> Phew.  FINALLY got the lawn mowed after 2 weeks of rain.
2021-05-23 19:46 <geist> johnjay: yah i use it actually
2021-05-23 19:46 <geist> you can actually snapshot from inside the console too
2021-05-23 19:46 <geist> snapvm i think?
2021-05-23 19:46 <johnjay> qemu console you mean?
2021-05-23 19:47 <johnjay> i just want to keep a base system i can access for testing.
2021-05-23 19:47 <doug16k> it's like saving a game. if you die you can respawn at the checkpoint (snapshot)
2021-05-23 19:47 <johnjay> so it might be easier to just do debian.qcow2 and debian2.qcow2
2021-05-23 19:48 <geist> right, there's basically two ways to do it: explicitly set up a qcow2 as a reference to another one
2021-05-23 19:48 <geist> and then you can commit changes from the second to the first explicitly
2021-05-23 19:48 <geist> or you can use the snapshot feature inside it and make as many as you want and delete old snapshots
2021-05-23 19:48 <geist> the former is neat, but it can't be done while the vm is running
2021-05-23 19:48 <johnjay> i see
2021-05-23 19:48 <johnjay> wait what do you mean commit changes?
2021-05-23 19:48 <geist> qemu-img commit i believe
2021-05-23 19:49 <johnjay> i just want a snapshot that doesn't change then work and update or whatever in the second one
2021-05-23 19:49 <geist> it copies changes in the second qcow to the firstone
2021-05-23 19:49 <johnjay> ok
2021-05-23 19:49 <geist> sure. that sounds like you want to create a qcow reference to the frist one
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2021-05-23 19:49 <Oli> johnjay, in qcow2's slang, it is named as copy on write:  One can create a qcow2 copy on write image of an existing qcow2 image, using the next qemu-img command:  qemu-img create -f qcow2 -o backing_file=original.qcow2 copy_on_write_file_for_original.qcow2
2021-05-23 19:49 <jimbzy> Pro tip: If you have to mow a wet lawn spray the bottom of your mower with PAM cooking spray and marvel as nothing sticks.
2021-05-23 19:50 <geist> i think it's just s qemu-img create with a ... yeah what Oli said
2021-05-23 19:50 <j`ey> that's cool, ive just been copying some .qcows around recently
2021-05-23 19:50 <geist> also SkyZ discovred me on discord
2021-05-23 19:50 <j`ey> skyz is resourceful :P
2021-05-23 19:51 <geist> also note if you're using btrfs or zfs or something you can just let the fs do the snapshotting for you
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2021-05-23 19:51 <doug16k> I tried the experimental zfs in ubuntu 20. snapshots every apt update
2021-05-23 19:52 <geist> i more or leess use btrfs on all my linux boxen now and use subvolumes fairly regularly
2021-05-23 19:52 <geist> or just reflink copies. if you'e smart about it you can do some neat stuff with it
2021-05-23 19:52 <jimbzy> I was wondering what happened to SkyZ
2021-05-23 19:52 <jimbzy> Nothing, apparently :p
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2021-05-23 19:53 <geist> we had kicked him eventually
2021-05-23 19:53 <johnjay> for some reason my images are .img not .qcow2 is that wrong?
2021-05-23 19:53 <geist> since he just wouldn't stop
2021-05-23 19:53 <geist> but he hasn't yet discovered this
2021-05-23 19:54 <geist> but while i was reading the wiki page in the freenode channel link i stumbped upon the discord osdev thing
2021-05-23 19:54 <geist> which i hadn't checked in a year or two
2021-05-23 19:54 <geist> and then skyz discoveed me there
2021-05-23 19:54 <johnjay> geist: can you give an example in simple terms so i can understand? what sort of neat stuff?
2021-05-23 19:54 <doug16k> johnjay, if they are flat images you can use qemu-img convert
2021-05-23 19:54 <jimbzy> geist, Just write their OS for them and let them put their name on it and they'll leave you alone.
2021-05-23 19:54 <johnjay> doug16k: no they are qcow but they are named .img for some reason
2021-05-23 19:55 <doug16k> ah
2021-05-23 19:55 <geist> jimbzy: well i dont want to diss on it too hard, there seems to be some actual discussions going on there, but there's some sort of air of... i dunno
2021-05-23 19:55 <geist> crass?
2021-05-23 19:55 <geist> hard to describe. like it's younger folks, which are fine. everyone is young
2021-05-23 19:55 <geist> but there's more likely to have shitposts or random rants in the channel topics or whatnot
2021-05-23 19:56 <jimbzy> I can't say nothing because I am the master of the offtopic rant, but shitposting isn't my thing.
2021-05-23 19:56 <geist> also it's generally an asset to discord and slac and whatnot, but sometimes having 30 channels to cover a topic seems like it spreads things too thin
2021-05-23 19:57 <johnjay> geist: discord is more wild and crazy yes. simply for the reason it was founded as a gaming platform and has image/video thumbnail sharing.
2021-05-23 19:57 <johnjay> it also makes creation easier so more people have them
2021-05-23 19:57 <johnjay> whereas in irc it's less likely for me to have my irc server and you to have yours
2021-05-23 19:57 <geist> yah i dont really mind it except for all the usual reasons if will it be around in 5 years, etc
2021-05-23 19:57 <doug16k> I tried discord. then realized it was a "post pictures of questionable food all day" chat system
2021-05-23 19:58 <jimbzy> You folks don't have your own IRC servers?
2021-05-23 19:58 <johnjay> well. probably not. but that is a high bar to pass
2021-05-23 19:58 <geist> actually i was wondering just last night if libera is connectable with old, unencrpted clients
2021-05-23 19:58 <geist> time to brush off my old irc client from my first OS
2021-05-23 19:58 <jimbzy> I'm not 6667
2021-05-23 19:58 <jimbzy> erm I'm not using encryption.  Port 6667
2021-05-23 19:59 <jimbzy> My hands are kinda sore from the vibration.
2021-05-23 19:59 <immibis> discord (not that specific one) also seems to have a slight air of being careful not to annoy the discord admins, because they will just delete your whole "server" (guild)
2021-05-23 19:59 <immibis> which is where you end up with harsh rules instead of just saying "use common sense please"
2021-05-23 19:59 <geist> immibis: yeah, exactly. the admin stuff is less distributed, so you're at the mercy of a few
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2021-05-23 20:00 <heat> yea you can connect unencrypted
2021-05-23 20:00 <geist> the one that immediately sets me off a teensy bit is the osdev discod has a channel for beginners and then for more advanced osdev
2021-05-23 20:00 <geist> an the topic has a huge bold thing like DONT ASK ABOUT PAGING HERE!!!!11
2021-05-23 20:00 <heat> hahahaha
2021-05-23 20:01 <geist> almost certainly a joke and totally harmless, but it seems, i dunno
2021-05-23 20:01 <geist> "OS development centric discussions. || DO NOT ASK HOW PAGING WORKS HERE OR ANYTHING TRIVIAL RELATED TO PAGING. GO TO #beginner"
2021-05-23 20:01 <immibis> this discord guild has rules like: editor war = ban. language war = ban. advertising = ban. not english = ban. anything against discord rules = ban.
2021-05-23 20:01 <immibis> and you know that because they are not discord admins, they will take a broad view of what might be against discord rules
2021-05-23 20:01 <immibis> in order to avoid missing anything that the actual admins don't like
2021-05-23 20:02 <geist> ah i see skyz just discovered the same discord channel
2021-05-23 20:02 <geist> started posting random links to pdfs
2021-05-23 20:02 <geist> doing the usual skyz topic drop thing
2021-05-23 20:02 <jimbzy> Hehehe
2021-05-23 20:03 <geist> well anyway. i kinda feel sorry for him, tried to help but i suspect he has severe ADD or something
2021-05-23 20:03 <immibis> i'm in several minecraft modding guilds and because one of the discord rules is "no video game cheating", any time someone asks for help and accidentally reveals they have a cheat installed, you must stop helping them immediately
2021-05-23 20:04 <geist> he just flits around between topics but can't actually stop and do the work he needs to do
2021-05-23 20:04 <jimbzy> I got that, too, geist.  ADD or ADHD or something.  My ToDo lists are deeply nested.
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2021-05-23 20:05 <jimbzy> It could just be part of parenting a child with autism, too.  Little nerd doesn't understand things like "Give me a minute"
2021-05-23 20:06 <geist> yah
2021-05-23 20:08 <heat> now im curious about the discord server
2021-05-23 20:08 <heat> lets see
2021-05-23 20:09 <geist> heat: i tried to give it a good try last year but it just seemed like the overall expertise level was too low
2021-05-23 20:09 <geist> and more importantly trying to help i didn't get a lot of serious uptake
2021-05-23 20:09 <geist> hard to describe but it didn't seem like folks asking for help really wanted it... i guess
2021-05-23 20:10 <heat> woah so many people
2021-05-23 20:10 <geist> but obviously there are good olks and so
2021-05-23 20:10 <jimbzy> They want easy answers.
2021-05-23 20:10 <geist> yah i dont want to brush everyone with the same color, but it seems like the overall level of discourse is just lower than i think a good day here
2021-05-23 20:12 <Oli> It is exactly how I feel about.  However, they have a channel dedicated to sharing resources, and feel entices about taking a look at once I find a good time for.
2021-05-23 20:12 <johnjay> geist: i guess the level of discourse is set by many factors. discord does have the feeling of being a causal thing for gaming or like watching a movie with friends
2021-05-23 20:12 <johnjay> that's what i use it for
2021-05-23 20:12 <Oli> enticed*
2021-05-23 20:13 <johnjay> like it would be weird to go into a common area and say hi want to talk about how to assemble ikea furniture? like you could but it's not really part of the "vibe"
2021-05-23 20:13 <heat> yeah I see what you mean
2021-05-23 20:13 <geist> yah i am on like 10 different discord servers
2021-05-23 20:14 <geist> but to a certain extent that's the problem. i dont have enough hours in the day to stay on top of all of them
2021-05-23 20:14 <geist> so i typically just ignore most of them most of the time
2021-05-23 20:16 <heat> just left the server, kinda meh
2021-05-23 20:16 <heat> but I did find geist though, so 10/10
2021-05-23 20:16 <johnjay> can you send me a couple of them to join?
2021-05-23 20:17 <geist> heat: yah i think i saw you but didn't send message
2021-05-23 20:17 <j`ey> LLVM is on discord now
2021-05-23 20:17 <geist> we went around as to where the officialy fuchsia channel is supposed to be on. i think we actually internally settled on zulip, which no one has ever heard of
2021-05-23 20:17 <geist> so thus no one uses, and the second 'official' channel is irc, which we just bounced to oftc
2021-05-23 20:18 riposte has quit [Quit: Quitting]
2021-05-23 20:18 <heat> j`ey: compiler internals being discussed in discord sounds fun lol
2021-05-23 20:18 <heat> I would bet most of it is "hurr durr code doesn't work help"
2021-05-23 20:18 <j`ey> lol
2021-05-23 20:19 <j`ey> I asked some linker questions there, and got some anwsers at least!
2021-05-23 20:20 jjuran has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
2021-05-23 20:20 <geist> really aside from the centralized ownership, will it be around, connecting from weird clients, and everything i can totally admit that slack/discord/etc are superior technically
2021-05-23 20:20 <cmrg> What's weird is FOSS projects being on Discord, which is known to be a botnet
2021-05-23 20:20 <geist> but there's something about irc just being a lowest common denominator that generally speaking sticks around
2021-05-23 20:20 <heat> cmrg: why?
2021-05-23 20:20 jjuran has joined #osdev
2021-05-23 20:20 <jimbzy> It just works.
2021-05-23 20:20 <jimbzy> And it does just enough to be useful.
2021-05-23 20:20 <johnjay> probably because text Just Works
2021-05-23 20:21 <j`ey> because if you have a FOSS project, you have to use FOSS everything I guess?
2021-05-23 20:21 <cmrg> heat: Because Discord has nothing to do with the FOSS philosophy
2021-05-23 20:21 <heat> yeah for things like hanging out with friends and more casual stuff I like discord, it's a way funnier experience, but for technical stuff yeah, IRC is nice
2021-05-23 20:21 <heat> cmrg: you called it a botnet
2021-05-23 20:21 <cmrg> heat: https://spyware.neocities.org/articles/discord.html
2021-05-23 20:21 <bslsk05> ​spyware.neocities.org: Discord — Spyware Watchdog
2021-05-23 20:22 <cmrg> "Further reading" has some more interesting articles
2021-05-23 20:22 <j`ey> nothing about it being a botnet tho lol
2021-05-23 20:22 <geist> interesting, i assumed the connection requirements to discord would make it too hard to botnet
2021-05-23 20:22 <heat> lol that's bullshit
2021-05-23 20:22 <geist> but i guess if you can roll a new login at any time its no big deal?
2021-05-23 20:23 <heat> in fact there's lots of illegal activity going on in discord that they literally can't ban
2021-05-23 20:23 <cmrg> geist: Good thing is that you can use Discord without a registered account, so I give them that
2021-05-23 20:24 jimbzy has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by jim_!~jim@67.6.87.211))]
2021-05-23 20:24 <geist> nooo jimzy was killed!
2021-05-23 20:24 <geist> rip jimzy
2021-05-23 20:24 jimbzy has joined #osdev
2021-05-23 20:24 <heat> jim killed jimbzy 
2021-05-23 20:24 <geist> hes dead jim
2021-05-23 20:24 <heat> what a monster
2021-05-23 20:24 <geist> jim on jim
2021-05-23 20:25 <jimbzy> The Return of Jim
2021-05-23 20:25 <geist> jim 2
2021-05-23 20:25 <heat> also a big advantage of discord is that you can enforce 2FA, which is absolutely lovely
2021-05-23 20:25 <doug16k> didn't even need defibrillator
2021-05-23 20:25 <heat> no weird spammers like in IRC
2021-05-23 20:25 <cmrg> heat: There are spammers in IRC
2021-05-23 20:25 <cmrg> s/IRC/Discord/
2021-05-23 20:25 <kazinsal> the jimmassacre
2021-05-23 20:25 <jimbzy> Hopefully, that won't be much of an issue after Tuesday when they install my new 1gbps service.
2021-05-23 20:25 <heat> cmrg, never met them
2021-05-23 20:25 <geist> well that's true. back in 2010 when #osdev was being completely slammed with He Who Shall Not Be Named
2021-05-23 20:25 <cmrg> I have, usually through DMs
2021-05-23 20:25 <geist> i was pretty much ready to give up irc
2021-05-23 20:26 <kazinsal> eugh, yeah, that was the Bad Year
2021-05-23 20:26 <geist> was fairly convinced the whole thing couldn't sustain anything newer
2021-05-23 20:27 <geist> side note: double check that nickserv here and other new channels you were on isn't making things public you dont want
2021-05-23 20:27 <geist> i learned a while ago that oftc nickserv by default publishes your email, etc
2021-05-23 20:27 <geist> not that i care, but others might
2021-05-23 20:28 <kazinsal> yeah, check your irc client realname as well
2021-05-23 20:28 <kazinsal> might be blasting your gecos field to the world
2021-05-23 20:28 <kazinsal> too bad IRC doesn't have an @everyone for PSAs like that
2021-05-23 20:28 <geist> yah i noticed i can get a cloak in oftc by checking a box but.... then nickserv info just goes ahead and shows the last ip address ic onnected from
2021-05-23 20:29 <kazinsal> huh. bizarre
2021-05-23 20:29 <kazinsal> seems pretty self-defeating
2021-05-23 20:30 <jimbzy> wallops?
2021-05-23 20:30 jjuran has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
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2021-05-23 20:33 <meisaka> afaik, there is a message type in irc that's directed at everyone in a channel
2021-05-23 20:34 <cmrg> geist: You can use nickserv and set "secure", "enforce" and "private"
2021-05-23 20:34 <cmrg> Some staff on #oftc said the default changed today, so 
2021-05-23 20:34 <geist> ah good. i switched to private, though i realy dont care if folks know my email address
2021-05-23 20:34 <geist> it's all over github
2021-05-23 20:35 * gog meows
2021-05-23 20:36 <heat> exactly
2021-05-23 20:36 sortie has joined #osdev
2021-05-23 20:36 <gog> @everyone meow
2021-05-23 20:36 <heat> a few weeks ago I got emailed by a random dude that wanted me to teach him osdev
2021-05-23 20:37 <sortie> That's nice. Was he arc4random?
2021-05-23 20:37 <gog> skyz dm'd me about a week ago
2021-05-23 20:37 * meisaka nyans
2021-05-23 20:37 <heat> sortie: no he used srand(time(NULL)); rand()
2021-05-23 20:37 <sortie> OK. I went to a concert and am now three beers drunk and making noodles and it is time to pull an all nigher and wake up tomorrow with a Sortix IRC network.
2021-05-23 20:37 <kazinsal> kircd
2021-05-23 20:38 <geist> yay
2021-05-23 20:38 <heat> i'm 0.5L beers drunk and I found a bug
2021-05-23 20:38 <heat> this makes me work so much better
2021-05-23 20:38 <gog> i'm sober and everything is terrible
2021-05-23 20:39 <immibis> meisaka: that would be called a plain old message? (aka PRIVMSG)
2021-05-23 20:39 jimbzy has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
2021-05-23 20:39 <heat> oh no everything is still terrible but with a taste of guinness in my moth
2021-05-23 20:39 <heat> mouth*
2021-05-23 20:39 <sortie> My next opponent is sendmsg(2) failing because it's called on something that's not a socket (ENOTSOCK)
2021-05-23 20:40 <dormito> sortie: the ircd is failing that way/
2021-05-23 20:40 <dormito> ?
2021-05-23 20:40 <meisaka> immibis: i thought was something else, but maybe my memory fails me
2021-05-23 20:41 <sortie> kazinsal: Solanum, also used by libera.chat :)
2021-05-23 20:42 <sortie> dormito: Yup. Gonna debug
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2021-05-23 20:43 <froggey> I had cl-ircd running yesterday, but too lazy to punch ports through my router, so no public access
2021-05-23 20:44 <sortie> Woot go go froggey
2021-05-23 20:45 <doug16k> I get ENOTSOCK sometimes when getting dressed, due to the holes in it
2021-05-23 20:46 <dormito> it's no longer a sock/
2021-05-23 20:46 <dormito> bah dieing laptop keyboard
2021-05-23 20:46 <gog> with a big enoug hole any sock becomes a leg warmer
2021-05-23 20:46 <dormito> well, maybe only an ankel warmer
2021-05-23 20:47 <gog> doug16k: i'm gonna get you a pair of programmer socks
2021-05-23 20:48 <gog> they increase coding ability
2021-05-23 20:48 <doug16k> I need those
2021-05-23 20:48 <sortie> OH
2021-05-23 20:48 <sortie> God dammit
2021-05-23 20:48 <dormito> find the issue already/
2021-05-23 20:48 <sortie> Y'all will NEVER believe why send(2) works on a TCP socket but sendmsg(2) doesn't
2021-05-23 20:48 <Oli> Do they stack?
2021-05-23 20:49 <sortie> ... I only implemented send(2) in tcp(4) and forgot to implement sendmsg(2)
2021-05-23 20:50 <heat> why are they different?
2021-05-23 20:50 <sortie> Buncha extra parameters and iovec stuff
2021-05-23 20:50 <doug16k> I don't think I have ever called sendmsg in my entire life
2021-05-23 20:51 <heat> all my write/read/send/sendto/recv/recvfrom are implemented on top of sendmsg
2021-05-23 20:51 <dormito> assuming you have a working sendmsg(2), it's only for unix sockets?
2021-05-23 20:51 <sortie> I have a working sendmsg(2) for UDP
2021-05-23 20:52 <dormito> oh
2021-05-23 20:52 <heat> https://github.com/heatd/Onyx/blob/master/kernel/kernel/net/socket.cpp#L1005-L1044
2021-05-23 20:52 <bslsk05> ​github.com: Onyx/socket.cpp at master · heatd/Onyx · GitHub
2021-05-23 20:52 <doug16k> sendmsg is cool
2021-05-23 20:52 <heat> sendmmsg is much cooler
2021-05-23 20:52 <heat> yet to implement though
2021-05-23 20:53 <sortie> And Unix sockets
2021-05-23 20:53 <geist> i thought you also needed sendmsg to provide datagram guarantees?
2021-05-23 20:54 cmrg has quit [Quit: leaving]
2021-05-23 20:58 <doug16k> is that MSG_CONFIRM ?
2021-05-23 20:58 <doug16k> what the heck does MSG_CONFIRM mean?
2021-05-23 20:59 <doug16k> reprobe via what ARP request?
2021-05-23 20:59 <geist> wait until it gets an ack? (well only on TCP)
2021-05-23 21:00 <geist> that would be kinda useful i guess: send this part of the socket and dont return until it has been fully acked by the other side
2021-05-23 21:00 <geist> s/socket/tcp stream/
2021-05-23 21:00 <johnjay> geist: speaking of github, is there a way to reformat it or something?
2021-05-23 21:00 <doug16k> oh is this to quickly notice disconnections?
2021-05-23 21:01 <geist> johnjay: reformat what?
2021-05-23 21:01 <johnjay> oh wait nevermind
2021-05-23 21:01 <doug16k> ah I see they explain in arp(7), my bad
2021-05-23 21:01 <johnjay> well i went to my page and the icon i chose is huge but i chose small pixel size so it looks like crap
2021-05-23 21:02 <johnjay> but i went to klange github and his icon is also overly large
2021-05-23 21:03 <johnjay> i guess it's just the github site itself then
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2021-05-23 21:21 <doug16k> I found a visualization of modern software running on modern hardware: https://www.shadertoy.com/view/4tGGW1
2021-05-23 21:21 <bslsk05> ​www.shadertoy.com: Shader - Shadertoy BETA
2021-05-23 21:23 <geist> oh that's neat
2021-05-23 21:23 <immibis> is that the clown from SS13?
2021-05-23 21:23 <immibis> or are they both based on some well-known clown?
2021-05-23 21:24 <immibis> just look at how that sprite is encoded
2021-05-23 21:26 <doug16k> this one is way beyond me how it works: http://glslsandbox.com/e#56547.0
2021-05-23 21:26 <bslsk05> ​glslsandbox.com: GLSL Sandbox
2021-05-23 21:27 <doug16k> sort not math postdoc
2021-05-23 21:27 <doug16k> sorry not*
2021-05-23 21:28 <doug16k> I mean how do you make him look around like that and tween everything. geez
2021-05-23 21:29 geist2 has joined #osdev
2021-05-23 21:31 <sortie> * *** Checking Ident
2021-05-23 21:31 <sortie> * Disconnected (Remote host closed socket).
2021-05-23 21:31 <sortie> OMG
2021-05-23 21:31 <geist> geist2 is me as well, going to try irccloud for a bit and see how well it works for me
2021-05-23 21:31 <geist2> sortie: this is your irc server you just wrote?
2021-05-23 21:31 <heat> he's porting
2021-05-23 21:31 <sortie> geist2: solanum powering this pristine network
2021-05-23 21:32 <geist2> slowortix?
2021-05-23 21:32 <sortie> ?
2021-05-23 21:32 <geist2> oh you know how folks used to say 'slowaris' when talking about solaris
2021-05-23 21:33 <sortie> I've never actually had anyone talk to me about Solaris and meant it
2021-05-23 21:33 <geist2> yah a bygone era really
2021-05-23 21:33 <geist2> since solaris hasn't mattered in 10 years or so
2021-05-23 21:33 <sortie> This irc did have a comment where someone raged against solaris stdio
2021-05-23 21:34 <geist2> i remember way back in the day (say around 2000) it was kinda the gold standard of unix implementations
2021-05-23 21:34 <geist2> we'd spend much more time in osdev circles talking about 'what does solaris do in this case'
2021-05-23 21:34 <heat> the gold standard of unix implementations is sortix
2021-05-23 21:34 <sortie> lol no
2021-05-23 21:34 <sortie> Though I have started to actually try
2021-05-23 21:34 <heat> sortix: not written in the 90s
2021-05-23 21:35 <heat> bsd: written in the 90s
2021-05-23 21:35 <heat> see a trend?
2021-05-23 21:35 <Oli> doug16k The webbrowser I am using, min, freezes with that animation a bit of time in:  It looks demo-y;  and am definitely saving it and figuring out how to watch later:  Thank you for sharing it!
2021-05-23 21:36 <doug16k> there are a lot of shaders on that site, not all so gpu intense as that
2021-05-23 21:38 <doug16k> that one is in my "oh my, how?" list though :)
2021-05-23 21:40 <doug16k> just the head movement and independence of head, the blinks are perfect, and how right the neck is, etc
2021-05-23 21:40 jimbzy has joined #osdev
2021-05-23 21:41 <geist> heh this M1 mac chews this one up
2021-05-23 21:41 <geist> can you link one that's particularly expensive?
2021-05-23 21:41 <doug16k> yeah
2021-05-23 21:41 <geist> selfie girl i guess
2021-05-23 21:41 <geist> https://www.shadertoy.com/view/WsSBzh
2021-05-23 21:41 <bslsk05> ​www.shadertoy.com: Shader - Shadertoy BETA
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2021-05-23 21:42 <geist> this gets about 4fps on the mac
2021-05-23 21:42 <jimbzy> Ok.  I think I got this setup right.
2021-05-23 21:42 <doug16k> https://www.shadertoy.com/view/MdX3Rr
2021-05-23 21:42 <bslsk05> ​www.shadertoy.com: Shader - Shadertoy BETA
2021-05-23 21:42 <doug16k> brutal one
2021-05-23 21:42 <geist> though i guess the size of the viewport matters a lot
2021-05-23 21:43 <geist> oh the mac does fine on this one
2021-05-23 21:43 <Oli> It reminded me about this whole 3:35 intro with music, in 4KB:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB0vBmiTr6o
2021-05-23 21:43 <geist> good 30fps at 1280x720
2021-05-23 21:43 <bslsk05> ​'elevated by Rgba & TBC | 4k intro (FullHD 1080p demoscene demo)' by Demoscene High-Quality Videos (Annikras) (00:03:36)
2021-05-23 21:44 <geist> oh the mountain one falls over if i go full screen on hte mac though
2021-05-23 21:44 <geist> at 4K
2021-05-23 21:44 <jaevanko> Oli: Good eye, Inigo Quilez was involved in both
2021-05-23 21:46 <Oli> Wait
2021-05-23 21:47 <doug16k> try this one: http://glslsandbox.com/e#5935.3
2021-05-23 21:47 <bslsk05> ​glslsandbox.com: GLSL Sandbox
2021-05-23 21:47 <Oli> I posted it before even visiting doug16k link LOL
2021-05-23 21:47 <doug16k> it will say your shader compiler rules or sucks
2021-05-23 21:47 <Oli> Nice coincidence
2021-05-23 21:47 <doug16k> more mindreading today
2021-05-23 21:48 <doug16k> it renders "sucks" if your compiler precision isn't right
2021-05-23 21:49 <heat> it likes nvidia and intel
2021-05-23 21:50 <doug16k> it says "rules" on some amd I hope?
2021-05-23 21:50 <jaevanko> it likes my amd on linux too
2021-05-23 21:50 <jaevanko> on my machine at least
2021-05-23 21:51 <sortie> Hmm, need to allow anonymous auth with my ircd
2021-05-23 21:51 <doug16k> ok for a sec I thought it might not be a legit test
2021-05-23 21:52 <jaevanko> on my phone it's just "YOU GLS COM" and then some garbage. Seems legit
2021-05-23 21:53 <doug16k> the shader code comment mentions horrible floating point implementations that use 16 bit mantissa and throw zeros in the low 7 bits of result mantissa
2021-05-23 21:55 <jaevanko> Anything for that throughput, right?
2021-05-23 21:55 <doug16k> yeah, and you can get away with pretty crap precision for graphics
2021-05-23 21:56 <doug16k> so much going on you can't notice a 2^-16 difference or smaller in the value
2021-05-23 21:57 <doug16k> maybe seams that flicker are worst thing, that's why you share the verts though and don't have t junctions: they all use the incorrectly calculated vertex coords :P
2021-05-23 21:59 <jaevanko> I wonder if that causes trouble when porting e.g. the HDR rendering pipeline in unreal engine - or if they just give up and use LDR
2021-05-23 21:59 <jaevanko> Like, tone-mapping ends up a bit wonky
2021-05-23 22:00 <doug16k> can be that big gpu doesn't have half precision and little one does and that makes it look worse
2021-05-23 22:01 <sortie> Hmm I think my ircd can sendmsg(2) now but it doesn't seem to hear clients
2021-05-23 22:01 <doug16k> newest ones will have float16 though
2021-05-23 22:02 <doug16k> gotta half float16 so you can quote the stupidly high TFLOPS for it on the box :P
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2021-05-23 22:02 <doug16k> have*
2021-05-23 22:03 <heat> sortie, recvmsg?
2021-05-23 22:03 <jaevanko> sortie: bringing up irc on your own OS? libc?
2021-05-23 22:04 <sortie> heat: Yeah I implemented it, although the program doesn't seem to be using it
2021-05-23 22:04 <sortie> Might be a poll thing
2021-05-23 22:04 <sortie> jaevanko: Yeah ircd and got my own libc
2021-05-23 22:04 <jaevanko> sick
2021-05-23 22:05 <meisaka> a lot of servers like poll(2)
2021-05-23 22:05 <heat> servers usually don't like poll
2021-05-23 22:05 <heat> epoll is better ;)
2021-05-23 22:05 <heat> or, if you're a weirdo, kpoll
2021-05-23 22:05 <heat> excuse me, kqueue
2021-05-23 22:06 <sortie> meisaka: Heck this thing here is even powered by an evolved version of the net stack you once contribed :)
2021-05-23 22:06 <doug16k> don't open this link unless your gpu is powerful: http://glslsandbox.com/e#45232.1  extremely difficult shader if you put it on "1" divisor at top
2021-05-23 22:06 <bslsk05> ​glslsandbox.com: GLSL Sandbox
2021-05-23 22:07 <doug16k> probably slowest one I have
2021-05-23 22:08 <meisaka> I remember these shaders
2021-05-23 22:08 <meisaka> I ran across them when I was researching SDFs
2021-05-23 22:09 <meisaka> sortie: scary thought :P
2021-05-23 22:10 <sortie> meisaka: It does.. uh have some scary TODOs left in the device driver parts
2021-05-23 22:11 <sortie> I mean I totally reworked most of your contribution beyond recognition but the driver stuff semantics remains
2021-05-23 22:12 <heat> i feel so stupid
2021-05-23 22:12 <heat> posix reads like legalese
2021-05-23 22:12 <heat> "The value of the pgid argument is valid but does not match the process ID of the process indicated by the pid argument and there is no process with a process group ID that matches the value of the pgid argument in the same session as the calling process." <-- what the fuck does this mean
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2021-05-23 22:14 <Bitweasil> The ARM manuals are similar for similar reasons.
2021-05-23 22:14 <doug16k> that is statement isn't it?
2021-05-23 22:15 <Bitweasil> There's a difference between the Intel-style "Describe what you've done" manuals and the "This describes how to implement it such that you don't end up screwing it up."
2021-05-23 22:15 <Bitweasil> I believe both the ARM manuals and the Posix standard are similar in that way.
2021-05-23 22:15 <doug16k> I agree it is hard to map that to a sensible interpretation
2021-05-23 22:15 <Bitweasil> It sounds like a description of matching up arguments with kernel state.
2021-05-23 22:16 <doug16k> where is the rest of the sentence though. is that really it?
2021-05-23 22:16 <heat> yes
2021-05-23 22:16 <doug16k> :O
2021-05-23 22:16 <heat> it's part of an errno
2021-05-23 22:17 <heat> https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/setpgid.html
2021-05-23 22:17 <bslsk05> ​pubs.opengroup.org: setpgid
2021-05-23 22:17 <meisaka> that sounds to me like, you try to set a process group, but you're in the wrong session for it
2021-05-23 22:17 <doug16k> oh it returns EPERM in that case, that adds a ton of sense to the fragment
2021-05-23 22:17 <Bitweasil> ... I mean, that's telling you the conditions for a specific error.
2021-05-23 22:17 <Bitweasil> In that case, it makes a ton more sense.
2021-05-23 22:17 <Bitweasil> "If the following is true, return EPERM."
2021-05-23 22:18 <Bitweasil> It's not the most readable thing on the planet, but it is basically a legal document.
2021-05-23 22:18 <heat> https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/setpgid.2.html
2021-05-23 22:18 <bslsk05> ​man7.org: setpgid(2) - Linux manual page
2021-05-23 22:18 <Bitweasil> "To implement Posix, you must have this behavior."
2021-05-23 22:18 <heat> compare with the man7 page
2021-05-23 22:18 <heat> the difference is ridiculous
2021-05-23 22:20 <heat> they never specify the behaviour for a non existent pgid, or a pgrp without a leader
2021-05-23 22:20 <doug16k> I expect everyone to assume it does what linux does
2021-05-23 22:20 <heat> setpgrp() is even better, they say "If setpgrp() creates a new session, then the new session has no controlling terminal." but it's never specified whether or not it creates a session
2021-05-23 22:21 <heat> "It is unspecified whether this function behaves as setpgid(0,0) or setsid() unless the process is already a session leader. Therefore, applications are encouraged to use setpgid() or setsid() as appropriate."
2021-05-23 22:21 <heat> ??????????
2021-05-23 22:21 <doug16k> it did in the predicate
2021-05-23 22:21 <doug16k> if it creates a new session
2021-05-23 22:22 <heat> no it doesn't, it never says whether or not it creates it
2021-05-23 22:22 <doug16k> If setpgrp() creates a new session, then...
2021-05-23 22:22 <sortie> heat: I implemented this stuff correctly in Sortix I believe
2021-05-23 22:22 <doug16k> what part am I missing
2021-05-23 22:22 <sortie> setpgrp does not make a session
2021-05-23 22:22 <heat> setpgrp is essentially UB
2021-05-23 22:22 <heat> you can implement it as setpgid(0, 0) or setsid()
2021-05-23 22:22 <sortie> OK don't listen too much to me
2021-05-23 22:23 <heat> which one? who fucking knows
2021-05-23 22:23 <sortie> heat: Don't implement setpgrp and getpgrp.
2021-05-23 22:23 <sortie> Only setpgid and getpgid are sensible and portable
2021-05-23 22:23 <heat> it's implemented in the libc
2021-05-23 22:23 <heat> so it's currently doing what linux does
2021-05-23 22:24 <sortie> Linux? How retro
2021-05-23 22:24 <heat> (setpgid)
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2021-05-23 22:25 <heat> sortie: i think your setpgid is non-compliant
2021-05-23 22:25 <heat> you can setpgid a process group leader
2021-05-23 22:26 <sortie> Oh no
2021-05-23 22:26 <sortie> heat: I'm too much in the zone of my own deranged madness to think about progress groups right now :)
2021-05-23 22:27 <heat> don't worry I'm in my own deranged madness
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2021-05-23 22:49 <doug16k> haha seeing if some old github code I have up still works, noticed my usb headset supports 32 bit float sample format lol
2021-05-23 22:49 <doug16k> 8 16 24 32 formats!
2021-05-23 22:49 <doug16k> cuckoo
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2021-05-23 22:52 <doug16k> as if it is saying, "let's see you find some audio code so stupid it doesn't work"
2021-05-23 22:52 <doug16k> good luck
2021-05-23 22:53 <doug16k> signed unsigned or float
2021-05-23 22:53 <doug16k> never seen sound device that overboard before
2021-05-23 22:54 <meisaka> it sounds like they covered all the bases
2021-05-23 22:54 <doug16k> stops at 48000. doesn't go to some ludicrous sample rate like some motherboard ones
2021-05-23 22:55 <klange> ugh, not even 88k? 0/10, not worth buying
2021-05-23 22:55 <doug16k> they are trying to cheat by hearing enemy footsteps in the game better
2021-05-23 22:56 <doug16k> if they want to cheat they should get quad speaker - 2 rear
2021-05-23 22:56 <doug16k> total cheat
2021-05-23 22:56 <doug16k> you can hear exactly where they are
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2021-05-23 22:57 <immibis> i'm sure anyone trying to use their sound card as a signal generator for electronics purposes appreciates high sample rates
2021-05-23 22:58 <moon-child> s16le@48khz or bust
2021-05-23 22:59 <doug16k> yeah, sane person usually throws it on that or 44.1 if even more timid
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2021-05-23 23:00 <doug16k> 1/65536th is small enough increment for mechanical thing pushing air around
2021-05-23 23:01 <immibis> what if you are trying to run it at 1/6553 volume? Then you only have 11 steps of pushing. Can you hear it? no idea
2021-05-23 23:01 <doug16k> humans will dynamically compensate for the quiet and crank up their sensitivity
2021-05-23 23:01 <moon-child> I think 16-bit has _technically_ slightly less range than human hearing, but...doubt it ever matters in practice
2021-05-23 23:02 <moon-child> immibis: this is for the hw interface.  When mixing you can use 24-bit or 32-bit formats
2021-05-23 23:02 <moon-child> (f32 is effectively 24-bit fixed-point)
2021-05-23 23:03 <doug16k> at the end of the day ya it is 24 bit sample
2021-05-23 23:03 <doug16k> with capability to have unusably high precision for lower numbers
2021-05-23 23:03 <doug16k> and handle input that is way past clipping and have volume scale it down before it is ruined
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2021-05-23 23:07 <doug16k> you might be just mixing sine waves in iDCT or something and it can handle whatever scale, whatever sample rate, and is float already. 2x bandwidth of 16bit sample though
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2021-05-23 23:10 <doug16k> I wish I had more lifetime totals known. like total disk read DMA, total keypresses, mouse distance, total number of sound card irqs, total sound card bus master TLPs
2021-05-23 23:11 <doug16k> imagine how many times a soundcard fetched data from ram just for you?
2021-05-23 23:11 <doug16k> a lot
2021-05-23 23:12 <doug16k> sound card is crazy one because humans need super tight latency
2021-05-23 23:12 <doug16k> we can hear where you are from sound that bounced off rocks man
2021-05-23 23:13 <sortie> OK, looks like my ircd port is able to receive from and send to clients. The auth doesn't quite seem to be working or something.
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2021-05-23 23:13 <doug16k> when you come to kill us
2021-05-23 23:13 <sortie> Feels like a good time to give up before it's suddenly 3-4 AM
2021-05-23 23:15 <meisaka> I don't usually know when to give up on projects, which is why I get no sleep
2021-05-23 23:27 <klange> Knowing when to stop is a skill in its own right...
2021-05-23 23:28 <doug16k> I have a project called "Fast"SpectrumAnalyzer and UI update perf sucks in gnome lol
2021-05-23 23:29 <doug16k> on 3950x + 2060 super, somehow
2021-05-23 23:30 <doug16k> when I named it it was smooth as glass on windows qt :P
2021-05-23 23:31 <jimbzy> How is that possible?
2021-05-23 23:32 <doug16k> perf top blames memcpy
2021-05-23 23:32 <doug16k> I guess I should gprof it
2021-05-23 23:32 <jimbzy> That just blows my mind.
2021-05-23 23:32 <doug16k> it should be 60fps near zero cpu on athlon64 800MHz
2021-05-23 23:33 <doug16k> with 2d accelerator
2021-05-23 23:33 <jimbzy> That's bad.
2021-05-23 23:34 <jimbzy> Wanna get drunk about it?
2021-05-23 23:34 <doug16k> lol
2021-05-23 23:34 <jimbzy> ;)
2021-05-23 23:37 <doug16k> I should go all the way and put an opengl 3.3 renderer in there
2021-05-23 23:37 <doug16k> stutter that!
2021-05-23 23:43 <heat> is there a way to check for debug info sanity?
2021-05-23 23:43 <doug16k> objdump -S the whole thing - it'll whine about dwarf to stderr
2021-05-23 23:43 <doug16k> that'll get some anyway
2021-05-23 23:44 <doug16k> I have made it screw up the debug info and it spammed a bunch of complaints about "abbrev" things
2021-05-23 23:45 <doug16k> for instance
2021-05-23 23:45 <heat> i do have a dwarf error
2021-05-23 23:45 <heat> I'm not sure if it's ok though
2021-05-23 23:45 <doug16k> likely ok. depends on whether you have gdb blowing up or asserting or disconnecting or it's fine
2021-05-23 23:46 <heat> i'm getting this thing where gdb gets completely screwed up when debugging my clang-built kernel
2021-05-23 23:46 <heat> works fine with gdb
2021-05-23 23:46 <heat> err, gcc
2021-05-23 23:46 <doug16k> for a while there were a couple of spots I couldn't step. it went away after I improved something in the link
2021-05-23 23:47 <doug16k> it didn't know line number info
2021-05-23 23:47 <doug16k> one region actually of assembly
2021-05-23 23:47 <doug16k> my assembly has full source level debug info
2021-05-23 23:48 <doug16k> I was getting those abbrev complaints
2021-05-23 23:48 <doug16k> I think it was having things that it thinks *must* be writable and they aren't
2021-05-23 23:49 <doug16k> hard to imagine how that causes it though
2021-05-23 23:49 <doug16k> I gave up and let stupid things like init_array be writable
2021-05-23 23:50 <doug16k> gonna write that eh? lol
2021-05-23 23:50 <doug16k> got too
2021-05-23 23:51 <doug16k> it is absolutely convinced you will write the got
2021-05-23 23:51 <doug16k> it doesn't know you are god
2021-05-23 23:52 <doug16k> you said "let the got be initialized" earlier, when it wasn't paying attention
2021-05-23 23:53 <heat> i am god
2021-05-23 23:54 <Oli> *pets gog*
2021-05-23 23:55 <heat> i am gog
2021-05-23 23:55 <heat> doug16k, yeah I assume I might be screwing up the linker script and that is screwing it all up
2021-05-23 23:56 <doug16k> I would try to put it all nicely going with the flow and see if it goes away. no weird writable in readonly or funny business
2021-05-23 23:57 <doug16k> and never use align before/after : in output section
2021-05-23 23:57 <doug16k> always play with . before, then let it lie
2021-05-23 23:58 <doug16k> ld might go "no actually it needs to be even more aligned" if you play with dot before. with it in output section declaration you are a crazed guy that pulled a gun and ld says "ok ok!"